Consultation Paper on the Role of Management of the DAG

This Consultation Paper follows the report of the London Team

Introduction
I write this on my own initiative & without the prompting from anyone in the DAG. I wish to make it clear that I have neither been canvassed as a successor to Diver nor am I offering myself as candidate as leader of the DAG. I write purely in the role of facilitator. I do so as someone with a Masters Degree in Management & as a former manager of my own highly successful business.

My Story states I just escaped from being caught by the debacle of 8th.October 2008. That is why I am Lucky Jim! I have been advised that as the Forum Profile format did not make provision for other financial interests in KSFIOM I could tick I am a depositor because through a legal instrument I have made an interest free loan to a depositor who was made penniless by the collapse of KSFIOM. In effect I will be the beneficiary of compensation when it is paid. Thus I have a de facto interest in KSFIOM. However, I have chosen NOT to say that I was a depositor because that would not have been a true statement.

From the outset I joined the DAG to offer my substantial managerial expertise, together with my considerable experience as a senior moderator in another forum. I was invited to join the now defunct Core Group, and was Editor/Moderator until the Forum was split into two & these roles were dropped.

The London Team Report
What I now have to say is not a criticism of the members of the London Team members. I have the greatest respect & admiration for each of them; they are all truly great people & have done an amazing job.
Whilst I welcome its report, I am somewhat concerned that it remains anonymous, it having been written both in the third person and the first, but unsigned.

My other concern is that I believe Most members of the DAG do not know the people who are in the Team. Also the DAG does not know to whom Diver has handed his mantle.
I believe that the DAG would like to have a say as to who is leading it, just as it did when Diver was selected as its first leader (however imperfect that was in democratic terms, it worked!)

Right now I:
1. support the Team in this transisitional period in which Diver hands over the reins
2. accept the need to raise money to meet necessary legal costs

That said, there are a number of issues that are of concern to some - if not all - of the membership of the DAG which need to be addressed.

  1. Diver originally headed The London Team working in tandem with another Team in the Isle of Man ably led by expat.. Subsequently Diver broke away from the DAG to form what was known as Diver’s informal Team .
    Essentially Diver’s informal team was free from external control and constraint whilst still reporting to the Forum & seeking its support in its pursuit of the objectives that it considered desirable to achieve the DAG’s Mission. Central to this was a conviction that legal advice & representation was essential to the task. Not all members shared that view. However, Diver enjoyed the support of the majority of members, a support that has been continuous to this day.

  2. Notwithstanding the generality of the great support that Diver enjoyed, inevitably there were issues which were of concern to members. One was the infrequency of communication between Diver & the DAG through the Forum, and the other was the representation of views that were specifically those of Diver & his Team (including legal advisers) which claimed to represent the majority view of the DAG when the DAG never had opportunity to consider whether it did in fact concur. (eg: John Wright’s Affidavit to the Court 29/1.)

  3. A well moderated forum such as the CHAT Forum can be a good vehicle:
    -- for gathering & sharing ideas & discussing issues;
    -- for offering support & encouragement to members;
    -- for expressing feelings of anger, anxiety, furstration & despair.

However, a forum per se would not be any organisation’s chosen means by which to manage a campaign to achieve a mission such as that of the DAG

4. I feel the time is right to have a review of the way in which the DAG manages the task of fulfilling its Mission
The DAG needs to have a management, administrative & logisitcs structure that is appropriate for what it seeks to do

I suggest what is now required is a SIMPLE management structure to undertake the following key tasks:

1. Operational Management
responsible for:
a. Strategy & Tactics and liaison with the IOM Team
b. Public Relations,/Press Releases
c. legal consultation & representation
d. fund raising for financing the websites & legal fees

2. Administrative Management
responsible for:
a. senior Forum administrator/co-ordinator role
b. IT personnel in charge of the 2 Forum websites
c. Editors/moderators for the CHAT website

5. I firmly believe that the time has now come for the London Team to come back into the heart of the DAG as its Operational Management Team In effect it already carries out the operational management task as I have outlined above, but it would do so in a more transparent and integrated way as part of the Forum and not as an appendage to it.

Conclusion
The time is right for the DAG to overhaul its Manageral & Administrative structure in order for it to be better able to serve its members interests in working more effectively in achieving the DAG’s Mission. . The means of accomplishing the Mission would be better served if the informal London Team were brought back into the DAG as its Operational Management Team

Footnote
If there is a consensus for what I have outlined supported by a Poll, I would be happy if there were a member willing to undertake the work to bring this about. Failing this I would be willing to undertake the task.

LJ

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LJ: "If there is a consensus

LJ: "If there is a consensus for what I have outlined supported by a Poll, I would be happy if there were a member willing to undertake the work to bring this about. Failing this I would be willing to undertake the task."

If there is indeed a consensus for what you have outlined above, I would be willing to undertake the task so as to avoid LJ doing so.

Of course unlike you, LJ, I do not have a Masters in management (although I used to teach IT and maths to students doing Masters degrees in Business Management, but I don't suppose that really qualifies me for anything much)

However, LJ, I am glad we have established that you are not, in fact, a depositor. Also, unless the legal instrument to which you refer above was a deed of assignment, you would have no voting rights as a creditor in the bank, so I am not quite sure why you should have voting rights on the forum either.

Who advised you that the act of lending money to a depositor gave you the right to declare yourself to be a depositor? I hope you did not pay for that advice.

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 00:22
Elgee, strikes me you dont

Elgee, strikes me you dont have much, NO masters degree in management, NO compasion for depositors with more to loose than you, NO supporters on this website and in a few weeks NO exposure to KSF IOM which I reckon then gives you less rights to be on this forum than Lucky JIm.
Oh, and definately NO vote from me to replace anybody on this forum or in the DAG who wishes to apply for a post or relinquish one. And with any luck NO reason for anybody to even give you the time of day once you have that precious £9000 of yours back under your mattress in a matter of days.

Posted by podather on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 00:47
Podather: "Elgee, strikes me

Podather: "Elgee, strikes me you dont have much",,,, I know, I am a miserable wretch!

"NO masters degree in management",,,,,, Correct, I only taught it.

"NO compasion for depositors with more to loose than you",,,,, Absolutely, I simply loathe anyone with £9001 or more on deposit, as the hundreds with whom I have corresponded during the past several months will doubtless tell you

"NO supporters on this website",,,,, None apart from the hundreds referred to above

"and in a few weeks NO exposure to KSF IOM",,,, quite a bit longer than a few weeks

"which I reckon then gives you less rights to be on this forum than Lucky JIm",,,, well that can apparently be remedied by my lending a few quid to a larger depositor, according to LJ

"Oh, and definately NO vote from me to replace anybody on this forum or in the DAG who wishes to apply for a post or relinquish one",,,, I would feel more comfortable if any supporters I did have were able to spell

"And with any luck NO reason for anybody to even give you the time of day once you have that precious £9000 of yours back under your mattress in a matter of days",,, quite a few months, I think you'll find. And the money is mostly my child's, who does know how to spell words like "definitely", "lose" and "compassion". Also, whatever makes you think I sleep on a mattress?

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 01:08
you are one serious

you are one serious cock....dont think i mis-spelt that.

Posted by podather on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 01:56
If we are going down the

If we are going down the route of formalising the DAG - then LJ's outline is a good starting point for discussion. The structure to this point has served the majority well albeit based on chaos theory, I would hope (and the recent poll suggests this as a true reflection of the DAG membership) that the current teams would continue in their respective roles.

After the 19th Feb, assuming the DD does not allow a further stay of execution the emphasis will change from an aggressive lobbying group to a more fact finding legal entity burrowing into the many dark crevices IoMG & HMG don't want explored any failings unearthed will need to be robust and have a monetary gain in the offering.

Of course there will be critics of any proposal, providing these criticisms are of a positive value to the DAG and any restructure, then they should be encouraged, criticisms purely on personal grounds should be dismissed.

As for divers replacement I would suggest a member who has experience in the corridors of power and is well conversant of the thought processes of politicians, would you consider throwing your hat in the ring?. I would also suggest we have an ex- banker (or forensic accountant if we have one) on the top tier of the to quote LJ "Operational Management", again I believe we have one or two bankers within our ranks.

Whoever takes on the roles and this will include the current team members we must also start to budget for travel and general out of pocket expenses for these members, we can not expect everyone to continue forfeiting their time and own money into a long dawn out battle, as we have done to date. I'm only too aware that I can not contribute to any of the current monetary pools never mind suggesting an additional one for the DAG members. For myself I do not intend to apply for the £1k IoM charity - the 10k if agreed pride and the terms of the acceptance would have to take second place to practicality and would then of course be able to add my contributions to the fighting funds.

Posted by skintagainnow on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 05:25
Please! elgee! Stop

Please! elgee! Stop nitpicking!
LuckyJim has given us something to go on. Your response takes a whack at LuckyJim.
No wonder you attract insults from some famous posters on this site.

Would everybody please stop getting at each other. This is irritating and is beginning to put me off from visiting this site. Feel free to attack opinions; but respect the writer.
I don't care who leads us, depositor or not. Thank you for volunteering your time for our benefit, LuckyJim.

But, LuckyJim, wouldn't it be best to wait until the next hearing? If the court accepts liquidation, then the DCS is triggered, meaning that sub50k people (like me and elgee) will not much longer be depositors. Is it fair to the over50k folk for the sub50k lot to voice opinions for long-term action, when we have no stake in the issue?

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 08:23
podather That's enough.

podather
That's enough. Please exercise restraint and tolerance, especially when feeling provoked. Thank you.

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 08:33
I read with interest your

I read with interest your posting and consider there to be substantial merit in your proposals and assessment of the DAG.
I would be very pleased for you to take over the mantel and thank you in advance for any help you can give.

Posted by caledonia on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 09:18
Elgee, Frankly I would rather

Elgee,
Frankly I would rather have my Labrador represent me in this than you. At least it wouldn’t do much harm and I could be sure it didn’t have any ulterior motives.
I have only one thing to say further to this:
ANYONE BUT YOU!

Posted by klauseriksen on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 11:19
I'm just ignoring Elgee. As

I'm just ignoring Elgee.

As for LJ ... I think he deserves recognition for taking the initiative regarding this matter, he seems to have an excellent analysis of the situation and furthermore, he has constructive ideas in relation to progressing our case from hereon. I admire his willingness to carry the burden and to undertake the role.

I would be willing to pledge my support to him based on these observations although I appreciate this would he would need to be formally elected.

I applaud his efforts so far.

Posted by Carol Mathers on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 12:11
Yippeeee,the elgee, non-fan

Yippeeee,the elgee, non-fan club strikes another blow.He will never learn.
When are you going to answer my question elgee,5th time of asking?

Posted by cottesmore on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 12:41
elgee,looks like your only

elgee,looks like your only mate on this site in steenjp.
podfather,dont be pressurised into no comment from steenjp.You crack on and say what you like!

Posted by cottesmore on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 12:45
"meaning that sub50k people

"meaning that sub50k people (like me and elgee) will not much longer be depositors."

True, we''ll be replaced by that nice Mr. Brown, or one of his henchmen, who'll have our votes

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 12:57
There will be time for this

There will be time for this after the 19th - why add distractions to the main thrust at present: Get the money in to fund the affadavit that will be required after the revised SoA is put on the table. Those with their life-savings at stake must realise this, even if the non-depositors' targets are elsewhere...

Posted by IceCrusher on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 13:16
I believe that your Labrador

I believe that your Labrador has already posted to that effect and, while he too is not even a depositor, he is doubtless better equipped to put your case than anyone else proposed so far.

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 13:43
Don't worry, I was not

Don't worry, I was not serious in proposing myself. But I am serious in opposing Lucky Jim, who I think would be a disastrous choice.

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:06
Timescale? Do we know how

Timescale?
Do we know how many years the payout will take?

Posted by coldlightofday on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:10
LONDON TEAM: REPLY TO

LONDON TEAM: REPLY TO ORIGINAL COMMENT BY LUCKY JIM:

At present there are several calls for elections , a separate groups of depositors employing different tactics and understandably much concern from individual depositors...
Now isn’t the moment for us to spend time address ing any of these issues.. we have absolutely critical deadlines to meet before the court hearing on Feb 19th and CANNOT be distracted from that goal.

We have been working on formalising the DAG for some time and following the 19th, then we will all stand down and allow for an elected committee to take our place . We have worked 24/7 since the beginning of this nightmare, we have done so without asking for personal donations (other than legal fees ) and have taken a lot of flack along the way. The reason we are not evident on the site is because we are spending our time unravelling the facts of this whole debacle and putting pressure on the politicians and people in power to put right the wrong that has been committed. Our relative anonymity has been advantageous strategically and a personal requirement to retain an element of sanity in what has otherwise been a very difficult situation, especially given the criticism we have had to endure along the way.

PLEASE you have trusted us to now and we have the best legal brains on our side, don't change your mind just because Diver has had to step back from being the public face of the DAG. He may have been the public face to you but do you realise he was away for six weeks over the Xmas period and our legal and media campaign continued unabated? Doesn't that demonstrate that we know what we are doing?

If we don't see this through to the 19th now then we are losing an opportunity to finish what we started and playing right into the IOMG hands. They want us to go away and be quiet. Remember they are also present on this site and will gladly join your calls to change the team at this stage, anything to divert our attention away from the business at hand.

We ask you to consider whether you would have got to this position alone. Whether you support the legal moves we have taken. Whether you recognise the strengths of a media campaign that got us centre stage on Channel 4 News last Monday, The Times and many other articles of note. That is what we have achieved. Let's stick together until the 19th and if you can, please contribute to the legal fund so that we can continue to ensure that the IOMG does not distract our attention from the detail of the agreement they want us to adopt.

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:30
You have the total support of

You have the total support of my wife and I and as recent polls on this site show, 96% of those who voted. Do not be distracted at this particularly crucial time. Do what you can for the 19th.....please.

Posted by sambururob on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:41
Let's get focussed... steenjp

Let's get focussed...

steenjp thank you for your positive & helpful stance.

You ask: "wouldn't it be best to wait until the next hearing?" I am not suggesting that this all happens by dusk tomorrow (: This is a consultation paper and I am sure that, along with other members here, the London team will want to express their views about what I have outlined.

This is not meant to be an exercise like moving house! The basic elements are already there... it's really a question of taking stock as to how the DAG's Mission could be managed more effectively with the changing scenarios. I firmly believe that having the London Team taking on the Role of the DAG's Operational Management Team within the DAG would be a big step forward.

Apart from anything else I have a hunch that members would feel more assured & confident about making financial donations when they can see that we mean serious business & are prepared to review how we can conduct that business with greater efficiency, effectiveness & economy,

If we set aside the irksome vindictive attacks & insults made by some members, we find that the DAG has a huge repository of goodwill, talent & skill. There are many highly intelligent, well qualified, very experienced & wise people in the DAG. Money might be tight because of the circumstances but we are not short of brains!

We are scattered throughout the world but through the telephone/skype, e-mails, MSN messaging & the occasional get-together we can rise above the obstacles and pool our brains to better accomplish the achievement of the DAG's Mission.

Posted by Lucky Jim on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:48
You have our total support

You have our total support with thanks for all your work and committment over the last four months.

Posted by caledonia on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:47
You have our total supprt and

You have our total supprt and thanks for all your efforts and hard work over the last 4 months.

Posted by caledonia on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 14:48
Sorry if I am being dense

Sorry if I am being dense here, but I really don't understand the cause of all this endless bickering. It seems to me that if LuckyJim is not a depositor but is prepared to spend his time and energies working for those of us who are, we should be very grateful. His contributions seem to be very helpful and he has obviously taken a lot of time and effort over them. Equally Elgee is quite entitled to his views and the fact that he has £9000 invested is not a cause for ridicule or insult. We all find ourselves in this awful position through no fault of our own and our interests are basically the same. If someone can write explaining the major differences in opinion and why they cause such vitriol I would be grateful.

Posted by Sarah f on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 15:11
You and Lucky Jim have my

You and Lucky Jim have my support

Posted by conned on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:33
London Team. I / we agree

London Team. I / we agree with your statement. Let us leave the L Team to get on with it up to the 19th and then formalise DAG afterwards the way you state.

Posted by Sophie on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:03
London Team. I / we agree

London Team. I / we agree with your statement. Let us leave the L Team to get on with it up to the 19th and then formalise DAG afterwards the way you state.

Posted by Sophie on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:03
I entirely agree with Sophie

I entirely agree with Sophie and thus with Lucky Jim. You guys have all done a fantastic job and am sure in the main (apart from Diver who is sadly moving to the side) you will continue in your present roles, if it is put to a vote. If it ain't broke, why fix it?? You people have helped/accomplished so much!!!
Will be making another albeit small donation to the legal fund for as you say, legal action appears to be paying dividends.

Posted by uptight61 on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:19
You have my and my parents'

You have my and my parents' support for as long as this fiasco takes. We really appreciate all that you are doing, have done and will do. Those who do not agree with your strategies should start their own group somewhere else. We would not have got this far without you. We owe you no endless amount gratitude. It's such a shame that a handful of people spoil it for all the others.

My theory on the anonymity bit, is that none of you are searching for glory or accolades by posting your names and CVs. (unlike some). You post in layman's terms that everyone can understand, and make your objects extremely clear. How many of us knew that Diver was absent for 6 weeks?

THIS IS ALTRUISM IN ITS PUREST FORM. THANK YOU.

I sincerely hope that the support that most depositors are giving you on this forum will override those nit-pickers who have nothing better to do.

Posted by chd on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:21
Sorry London Team. Our

Sorry London Team.

Our respective posts got crossed in the process of posting!

Thank you for your most helpful comments.

As I stated in the Consultation Paper you have my unqualified support in this transitional period.
I am not suggesting for a moment that anything happens before 19 Feb. You are all doing a fantastic job.
& the DAG would be up the creek without a paddle without you.

Likewise I am NOT suggesting either that the Team throws in the towel after 19 February. (:

IT would be a big step forward If in due course after 19 Feb you were to continue your present role as the Operational Management Team within the DAG. Apart from the issue of 'accountability' there is a big psychological issue about this.

I entirely accept your argument that you should be able to operate without distractions. This MUST continue. Members would not want you to feel that you are expected to make a frequent contribution to the generality of the chat. What the Forum members would like is regular feedback by way of position statements. There are also people like myself who are willing to act as facilitators, helping you constructively in various ways by taking on specific tasks at your request

Finally right now the DAG still hasn't a clue as to what is happening behind the scenes to replace Diver with an acting Leader. No-one is losing any sleep about this but people are inevitably suspicious about what goes on in secrecy ! There's been enough of this in the KSFIOM debacle ! At least members are not having to read between the lines on this issue as I deliberately made it clear that I was neither being canvassed nor making a bid to be a candidate ! (:

NO REPLY NECESSARY right now ...... carry on with the more urgent tasks in hand (:

Posted by Lucky Jim on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:41
Lucky Jim. Well said.

Lucky Jim. Well said.

Posted by Sophie on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 16:40
We appreciate all The London

We appreciate all The London Team's efforts and LJ's input of where to go after the 19th. Thanks to all of you. We will continue to support the legal fund .

Posted by romans on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 17:21
Thanks Lucky Jim, A well

Thanks Lucky Jim,

A well thought out Paper, for which you have my support and my vote if you wish to stand.

For London Team,

Thanks for your comments above, you have my complete confidence and I hope very much that you will all be willing and able to continue until we get some serious light at the end of the tunnel.

Kind regards,

Mike

Posted by mikepapa on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 19:40
Hat size !? Intended as

Hat size !? Intended as response to sarah f

Posted by wood on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 20:25
LJ: "There are many highly

LJ: "There are many highly intelligent, well qualified, very experienced & wise people in the DAG. Money might be tight because of the circumstances but we are not short of brains!"

Absolutely right, Lucky Jim, but what is your role?

Posted by Anonymous on Sat, 07/02/2009 - 22:08
"(LT) We ask you to consider

"(LT) We ask you to consider whether you would have got to this position alone. Whether you support the legal moves we have taken. Whether you recognise the strengths of a media campaign that got us centre stage on Channel 4 News last Monday, The Times and many other articles of note. That is what we have achieved. Let's stick together until the 19th and if you can, please contribute to the legal fund so that we can continue to ensure that the IOMG does not distract our attention from the detail of the agreement they want us to adopt."

London Team: You have the majority vote and as LJ says, you must continue now and after the 19th. You have achieved so much and you must continue. Use LJ if necessary to communicate the news to us on the forum. But for sure, you must do whatever it takes to remain as the driving force behind our campaign to get us as much of our money back as quickly as possibly. Our sincere and grateful thanks to you all in the LT. Yes its time to start the campaign to highlight the downside to investing in the IOM, as per the adverts blogged by 'Fight Theft', its time to make the IOMG pay us to get rid of us, or we will destroy your economy as you seem intent on doing.

Posted by calpespain on Sun, 08/02/2009 - 01:08
Please don't talk of standing

Please don't talk of standing down, wholeheartedly agree this is not the time to even "entertain" ideas of change, it is time to stand firm, 100% behind everything you are trying to do and have already done. IOMG have a battle to face but we want a "win, win" solution for them and us, they just have to open their eyes to the fact that if they are to survive that is the only option.

Let's keep our sights firmly focused on the 19. Have sent a donation to the legal fund.

Many thanks to all the "team" for their unstinting efforts on our behalf.

Posted by homeless on Sun, 08/02/2009 - 04:29