Who is the DAG?

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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Posted: Sun, 21/12/2008 - 23:36

Added here, should it require discussion - http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/blog-entry/who-ksfiom-dag

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Who is the DAG, minor rethink

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Thu, 25/12/2008 - 00:57

Thanks for the recent updates elsewhere re. IoM events and progress made. If those posts were triggered by mine then I'd like to think I've achieved something with it. Reading my own posts again though, perhaps I was a little unfair. Everybody is stressed, everybody is busy and nobody is perfect. We all have lives outside of this thing, or are trying to have.

So please...
* Don't take the limelight without taking the responsibility that goes with it. Communication is one of those responsibilities. There are a few key players who many members are counting on.
* Do tell the DAG what you know. If there is no news, then that is the news. Information helps everyone to feel a little more comfortable.
* Do encourage new ideas - the old adage "there are many ways to skin a cat" may be pertinent.

In summary, keep up the great work, everyone. Let's stay positive, let's stay focussed, let's keep communicating, and let's keep the "A" in "DAG".

And Happy Christmas, everybody.


Get Back

  • Wanda
  • 12/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Sun, 28/12/2008 - 14:52

Thanks, ng - your rallying cry has brought me back here from "the path of least resistance" that I seem to have taken these past few weeks. Actually, I fall under the "everybody is busy" category, since I've been busting my butt working 55 hrs a week @ $10 an hour since the proverbial s**t hit the fan. At that rate, I'll never live long enough to get back what I stand to lose - GBP350K - so it's hard to be enthusiastic about the proposed GBP1000 payout. However, I for one am happy to pledge a portion of that payout to the expenses of the DAG team, whose incredible talents and efforts have brought us this far and would suggest that other active members consider doing likewise.


we wont give up

  • hippychickrobbed
  • 03/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 28/12/2008 - 15:47

Wanda dont you go away,......and we will all live long enough to see our savings back in some form, otherwise its called haunting them.


arigato ng

  • Anonymous
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  • Sat, 27/12/2008 - 04:27

You stirred things up: and we have a good outcome. Good move, ng.
And thank you for everyday site work. You are the vital part of the DAG.


Re: the Post 'Who is the DAG?'

  • Lucky Jim
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 22/12/2008 - 14:21

Thank you ng for your very helpful, & timely, blog on the question: 'Who is the DAG?'
I am sure that I speak for everyone in saying that we are immensely grateful to you for the huge amount of time & hard work that you put into the Forum in your role as leading administrator

Following on from the topic I think members would like to know:

  1. who is the leader of DAG
  2. how the Core people (the leaders) communicate with each other in order to frame & co-ordinate 'Action & Strategy' on behalf of the whole of DAG
  3. the various channels through which Press Releases are issued

I feel that members would like to be able to see a regularly updated list of Core leaders along with the role that they each undertake

In addition to the Forum 'Action & Strategy' it would be helpful if there were a Post specific to DAG's 'official' strategic objectives & the plan in place to achieve those objectives.

Then this Post would be where members could look up the official position as to what we are doing & where we are going at that point in time


My questions answered

  • Lucky Jim
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 26/12/2008 - 10:36

Diver's Christmas Day present to the Forum has cut through the Forum fog on the topic of this Post.
http://www.chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/forum-topic/very-important-update-p...
Clearly Diver has assumed a leadership role and has raised a new banner under which DAG may regroup & march into the New Year with new clarity & confidence. Thus the questions I raised above have, to all intent & purpose, been answered.

I feel that from hereon in the focus of 'chat' in the Forum should be centred on the clear agenda that has been set by Diver and the representative group.


DAG Strategy

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Fri, 26/12/2008 - 12:21

Good points LJ. Clearly recent posts - http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/forum-topic/very-important-update-pleas... and its comments - answer a lot of questions that you, I and others were raising. However, already several members have questioned (albeit not publicly) the make up of the proposed committee, and I suspect that those questions need to be formalised and answered before the DAG as a whole is properly informed so as to make a group decision on the proposal.


The DAG has no leader. It never has.

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 12:26

Does it need one? Probably not in my view.

Does it need "management" (by a committee/core whatever you like to call it) Yes I think it does.

There is a Core group which sprang up in the days after "ground zero". In these early days and weeks there was much good work done by members of the core and a lot of discussion of matters that could not be put into the public domain (hence the formation of the Core). Some of those discussions and strategies have come to nothing (as you might expect) and others are still ongoing (eg close links with the IoM Treasury, Alan Bell, John Spellman by the IoM team - and yes it does still exist - someone asked elsewhere today!). In recent times it is fair to say that activity

Having said all this, and despite being a member of the current Core group since the time I was camped out in the IoM with expat, I am certain that current members of the Core have no divine right to be there (they were never elected after all) and there is a strong argument to reform the group with any of the existing group who still have the time, energy and enthusiasm and have not "burned themselves out" AND some of the really talented and enthusiaistic people who post regularly to the forum now, and who have more time and energy, etc :-)

There are many members of the current Core group who are still very active and pursuing their own pet projects (Diver with his legal action, DaveBraddan and others with IoM government). There are also one of two who have faded away.

In conclusion, I agree with ng's points and understand Lucky Jim's questions about the Core and the Groups's objectives and strategy. The time is right to look again at how the DAG is managed if we want to get the best from it.

There have been strategies proposed by people recently (eg direct action the UK, driving a bus around the IoM) which have a lot to be said for them but have never been taken forwards because members seem to have been waiting for "approval" from on high. If that is so, it would be a great shame. We need to make sure we harness the huge amount of talent and enthusiasm, and explore EVERY avenue to getting our money back!


action group

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 26/12/2008 - 13:12

I think that there are many who are working hard to get some answers what I am concerned about is that they restrict themselves to getting answers and not try to negotiate compromises. The IOM has stated that depositors are covered up to 50,000 but we do not appear able to make any claims as the position of KSFIOM is unclear. The IOM seems to have accepted that the UK can take 550mm of deposits made by KSFIOM in the UK affiliated bank and that nevertheless they can rely on the UK government to represent their interests - this seems unrealistic to me. I believe that depositors and their advisers, trustees etc. involved with the deposits should ensure that the IOM is under no illusion that unless it protects retail depositors which also includes those obliged to deposit through trust or bond wrappers that it has no future as an offshore financial services centre as it will have lost the trust. It also has to answer questions about the regulatory oversight which enabled KSFIOM to "bet the bank" by placing such a large single deposit in an affiliated entity.

I understand that the DAG is asking these questions and we should support that. Where I get concerned is when I read about silly little distributions of 1,000pds each what does that do for the many (majority) who have lost considerably more than that and those who have lost everything. We have to press for the ability to post claims and for an agreed end date by which time KSFIOM is either sold or placed into liquidation and either event would then trigger the FSC compensation backdated to the original date when the bank ceased trading.

We do need a focussed and knowledgeable group to represent us - many of us are overseas and have limited means to assist therefore we should support those willing and able to do so. Nothing is stopping individuals putting themselves forward if they have the capability to do so. If enough do then profiles can be posted on the web and we can "elect'" a maximum no. from amongst them but there is value in continuity and it would be foolish not to have proper professional advice either from those who are qualified in the group itself or outside counsel if that is preferable.


these should be addressed

  • hippychickrobbed
  • 03/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 26/12/2008 - 16:43

Hello Dsm, these ofcourse are very serious matters and should be put forward to the IOM govt who behaved treacherously to their own depositors. Their future of offshore banking does very much depend on the outcome of this, and I as a bondholder with over 320k at stake wonder how any insurance company selling these bonds can tell their new clients that it is safe to open up an offshore wrapper bond on the isle of man. I think they should come with a hazard warning or do they think they can get away with these saying these were unprecedented times, who are they kidding?. Nevermind the emotional trauma people have been put through. Like I have said before this was not some bongo bongo bank in the middle of nowhere. I have already been sent by the uk tresury not that I care about that govt either to report what went wrong with my investment. I though do not want to be portrayed as a victim in this and hope that the iom realise that from all of us depositors. Basically we will not go away till this is solved favourably for everyone involved.


I agree

  • hippychickrobbed
  • 03/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 12:58

Then let this bus go around advertising our plight, what does the iom team think? we dont want to sit here in yrs to come alot poorer wish we done this and that.


Who is the leader of the DAG? (etc)

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Mon, 22/12/2008 - 19:02

Hi LJ,

Here are my answers, not on behalf of anybody ...

1. Who is the leader of DAG?

I don't believe the DAG currently has any leader(s). There are things which are not happening or only to a limited extent - definition of objectives, strategies to meet those objectives, milestones and so on, plus effective communication of those to the Group. These, among other things, I would expect "Leaders" to do. There may be people who are doing some of those things, but it seems to me that if that is the case they are not communicating with the DAG, so in any case they are not leaders of the DAG.

"If a leader can't get a message across clearly and motivate others to act on it, then having a message doesn't even matter." -- http://www.leadershipnow.com/communicationquotes.html (worth reading.)

2. how the Core people (the leaders) communicate with each other in order to frame & co-ordinate 'Action & Strategy' on behalf of the whole of DAG

Badly, but see (1).

3. the various channels through which Press Releases are issued

I don't know, I hope teapot or sleeplessnight will answer that one.


Here are my own questions and ideas:

Does the DAG actually need a leader or leaders?

Yes, I think so.

Does the DAG actually need a "core" team?

Yes, I think so.

What qualities do the leader(s) need?

Again http://www.leadershipnow.com/communicationquotes.html gives more than one clue. Add, motivation, sufficient time and, realistically a stable personal financial situation. What else? Vision, creativity, integrity and more - they're all there on that same site e.g. http://www.leadershipnow.com/visionquotes.html

What qualities do the core team need?

We do need some specific skills. Legal, finance, PR etc. Established contacts can help too. But really it's not easy to answer this question without first answering the question: What are our objectives and strategies? PR? Legal? Lobbying? UK? IoM? Iceland? etc.

Is it feasible to have an effective core team made up only of volunteers?

I am not sure, that would need to be investigated.

What to do now?

Again I will reiterate a lot of excellent work has already been done and some people are putting in a lot of hours for our cause. However, I would suggest that activity alone is insufficient - we also need to control efficiency, effectiveness and direction.

I will shortly be proposing a complete overhaul of the core team concept, based on elected and qualified members. I do hope we have sufficient candidates.


thanks ng

  • Anonymous
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 08:36

Thanks ng.

If you (perceived by most 'ordinary members', I guess, as in the centre of the "core-people") have concerns, then you are right to voice them.

There is so much latent energy here, but if it's not harnessed, then it's wasted ..........along with our savings.


Core2

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 00:35

This is in danger of disappearing from "active forum topics". Perhaps rightly so, I am beginning to wonder.

If there are any "leaders" out there please make themselves known. I will aim to ask the same question in a more structured way soon.


Leadership / help

  • laserblues2
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 17:53

Hi NG and everyone else....

I have suggested a few ideas including organising the buses to go around London & also trips to the IOM. I am also part of the PWC communication team - along with Frog / Nigel

I am happy to organise other events, trips or anything else - however as I discussed with TrickyDicky a few weeks back I do not want to do anything that will compromise the core team or any of the communications any one else is doing.

I am prepared to help in any way I can

Nick

PS. Fairly disappointing response to this thread so far...


Taking the initiative

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Wed, 24/12/2008 - 02:15

Laserblue, first thanks to you and frog for the PWC call which I think has been an important break through.

Maybe I am alone in this but I'm waiting on 15th Jan and what the IOM Gov't is going to propose to the Court for the next hearing. If there is not significant movement at this stage then I would like to see our energies move to exerting extreme pressure on the IOM Gov't. Irrespective of blame, which it seems to me sits spread between the IOM (FSC, Treasury, Banks Directors, KSF managers), UK Gov't (Treasury, FSA, Courts) and Iceland (where do I begin), the IOM Gov't is the only group that ultimately has an obligation to sort this mess out.
If they do not see their goals aligned with ours then we need to further demonstrate that if we go down they go down with us.

I'm pretty dispirited about the lack of energy and interest shown by many on this site (the petition being a good example) and I'm personally going to take a breather this side of the 15th Jan. After that depends on the IOM Gov't.


Bus advertising

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 21:57

The idea sounded good to me from the start. The questions in my mind are are: (1) Is it line with our PR strategy? (2) Can it be funded? (3) Who is the sub-team who will organise it?

As you know, we have the "Groups" concept on here. "Groups" are people (teams lets say.) It's trivial to set up a new Group, so if a worthwhile project (like bus advertising) comes up, I'd say: (1) Get a team together (2) Make it so. You don't need to have a Group set up, but it may help with communication within the team.

(something I concluded a long time ago: there are only ever three important questions, maybe two, rarely one but never more than three. If you have more than three, some are the wrong questions.) Well, it's a philosophy, not law of the universe, but IME seems to help clarify.


Whose doing what?

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 02:31

I am confused as to whose doing what .
It would be nice to know or has everyone disappeared?


No we haven't all

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 07:05

No we haven't all disappeared! There is a fair amount of contact between people going on. One series of emails between us seem to have led to this article:

http://www.manxherald.com/index.php?news=361

However, we cannot always post news because particularly at this time, as news is thin on the ground and I for one have a young family to try to give a bit of a xmas to!! Not easy at the moment as I am sure is true for many of you. Don't lose heart there is activity and many of us are in contact and trying to influence things as best we can.

I have also received an email from David Cameron which shows a bit of movement in recognising that an enquiry into events is over due.


Can we see the email?

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 13:45

... from David Cameron? It sounds very interesting. (incidentally I have emailed him several times and never got an automated acknowledgment even)


Email from David Cameron

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Wed, 24/12/2008 - 09:36

I'll take that as a No then shall I? ;-)


Elpasout - reply from D Cameron

  • wood
  • 12/10/08 30/05/13
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  • Wed, 24/12/2008 - 17:53

Don't know if this would be the same reply I got. I posted it on 16 Dec in 'Replies from MPs' - Gutted and Julienne reported getting the same reply:

Dear Mr XXXX
I am writing on behalf of David Cameron to thank you for your recent e-mail concerning KSFIOM.

We appreciate the difficulties that the administration of KSFIOM has caused to depositors whether they are in the UK or overseas. This must be an uncertain and distressing time for you.

As you know, KSFIOM falls outside the jurisdiction of the UK regulator and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, and depositors are not covered by the UK compensation arrangements. As we understand, under the Isle of Man’s deposit protection scheme, there is protection for deposits of £50,000 and under. Those with deposits in excess of this amount will be dependant on the bank administrators to maximise the amount recoverable from the bank in excess of £50,000.

We also understand that following a meeting with Allan Bell, the Minister for the Treasury, the Isle of Man Government has successfully sought a 60 day extension to the administration order to see if there is a way of rescuing the bank that could lead to quicker payouts to depositors than liquidation.

We appreciate that there are a number of unanswered questions about the way the UK Government and regulators handled KSF in the UK and the impact of this on KSFIOM. There is widespread concern that the actions of the UK Government and regulator triggered the administration of KSFIOM and the transfer of £550million of deposits in KSFIOM from Iceland to KSF in the UK. These issues need to be addressed and the Shadow Financial Secretary, Mark Hoban MP, has called on the Government to set up an independent inquiry into its handling of KSF and the other Icelandic banks. We are maintaining the pressure on the Government in UK to explain its role in the crisis and its resolution.

Thank you, once again, for writing.

Yours sincerely,

Lara Moreno Perez
Office of the Leader of the Opposition
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA


I will asssume this is the same reply from Cameron

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Thu, 25/12/2008 - 23:22

which expat received. It does seem to recognise the need for an enquiry - as was said. Its a step in the right direction from isn't it.
Thx


Not a Dicky Bird

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 23/12/2008 - 14:03

Me neither not a Dicky Bird