What happened today (16th October)

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Wed, 15/10/2008 - 23:10

A summary of today's events.

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What happened today

  • Pat
  • 10/10/08 30/11/12
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 00:41

Great to have a synopsis of the day posted as a topic. I am in the USA and although I have been getting up early (like many others I am finding it hard to sleep!) it still takes me a while to catch up with what is happening. You guys are doing a great job - I have been writing to everyone that I can as well as the contacts listed on the site. I will continue to do so. My daughter lives in London and she said she would try and get to the House of Parliament this week following Divers success. Happy to contribute towards expenses etc if required.

Keep up the good work.

happened today last

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 00:30

For those of you down-under and depressed at not knowing what the hell is happening to your money because there's 1000 new posts since you last logged on and you can't work out how to find the one that contains the "ray of hope" amongst them, "IsleofMuppets" created this forum's best thread so far entitled "When You Get Your Money Back" and kicked it off with this choice quotation by George Best:

"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."


Seriously, there is still hope in one way or another.

There was surely a lot more that happened today that you'll find with a bit of patience in the forums, but on that note, I finish the day's roundup. 'Nite all.

happened today 6

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 00:20

NG and others worked hard to improve this site. There was no downtime today the site stayed up all day.
He created lots of geographical discussion groups, including for those of you down-under, for you all to hook up with others in your various parts of the world.

A bunch of people have joined the groups, but no-one seems to understand how they work. It's not that hard:

  • Go to Groups in the left side-bar.
  • Join the group for your region.
  • Click Create new Group topic (top of right side-bar).
  • Give the new topic for discussion a Title, write your message, then in the audience section, choose which Group(s) you want it to be posted in.
  • Hit Preview, then in the new screen, save.

happened today 5

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 00:13

We discovered there will be a meeting of the Council of Ministers in IOM tomorrow to discuss the issue.
Expat and the folks in IOM (of which some more people on this forum travelled there today) are aware of it.


There was a thread that discussed it a little bit, but I can't find it.

happened today 4

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 23:58

There was various media activity - nothing dramatic if I remember but I honestly I didn't follow it all:


But we are expecting articles on us in tomorrow's Guardian Money and probably more importantly, the Financial Times.

A dedicated thread here was set up for savers willing to be put forward for media interviews, though it seems some people haven't seen it.


happened today 3

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 23:54

There was lots more discussion on the status of in-flight transfers. It's not all very clear. Some reports say it wasn't allowed to leave the UK. Others that some of it may now be in correspondent banks, suspended. A couple of forum members have taken legal advice which seems to suggest there may be hopes for successful legal action to release at least some of these transfers. Sorry am too tired to find all the links.

happened today 2

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 23:50

The UK Treasury and IOM Govt confirmed publicly (for the first time I think) that the UK Treasury is representing Isle of Man interests in Iceland:



"Diver" provided an optimistic view of the significance, if you need some cheering up.



Belgium appears to be striking some sort of deal to rescue Kaupthing Belgium, while there appears to be real activity in rescuing Iceland generally by UK & European Govts and the IMF:


happened today 1

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 23:44

I can't seem to link to actual posts very well, so I'll copy/paste here, but the following letter (approximately, may have been tweaked slightly before delivery) from us is now sat on the desk of Tony Brown:

Isle of Man - Questions for Tony Brown (Chief Minister) and Allan Bell (Treasury Minister)

  1. Can you confirm that the interests of the IoM are being fully represented at the current talks being held the Icelandic authorities and the UK government.
  2. Can you confirm that you have formally asked for the Icelandic authorities to honour the parent guarantee to KSF(IoM)
  3. Can confirm that you have made formal representations to the UK Treasury to return in full the deposits of KSF(IoM) held in KSF London
  4. Have you asked the UK government to insist that any loan from the IMF to Iceland includes a condition that Kaupthing, as a state owned company, honours its guarantees to subsidiaries
  5. In light of the UK’s role in triggering the receivership of Kaupthing, has the IoM government requested that the UK government help guarantee the deposits in the absence of a guarantee from the Icelandic Government?
  6. Has the UK Treasury acknowledged the presence of KSF (IOM) assets in the UK? Quantify. What is the status of negotiations with UK regarding KSF (IOM) assets held there?
  7. What is the status of the UK Treasury delegations talks with Iceland? What actions / decisions have been made / taken with respect IOM depositors in these talks?
  8. What else is being done by IOM government to protect/advance depositor interests?
  9. What steps has the UK Government taken in representing the IOM’s interests in this matter?


  1. Can we obtain a detailed overview of how the compensation scheme works?
  2. If we apply for compensation do we lose out on any recovery of assets by the liquidator? (Important for large deposits).
  3. Would the compensation scheme apply to un-recovered balances, that is, the amounts owed to depositors after the recovery and distribution of assets. Or does the scheme apply to the original amount of the deposits?
  4. From IOM's point of view, is it better for the liquidator to recover as much as possible first and then have depositors claim against any remaining net losses?
  5. What is the IOM planning to do to properly fund the compensation scheme if it turns out to be needed?


  1. Given the international nature of the customers of KSF(IoM), can you organize a bi-weekly conference call during which you can update the depositors on any progress?

PWC - Questions for Mike Simpson


  1. How much of depositor's money is available on the IOM?
  2. Exactly how much does KSF (IOM) owe to Individual depositors? Versus companies /partnerships/other non-individual depositors?
  3. How much cash is actually currently sitting in the IoM branch of KSF?
  4. Breakdown number of depositors and size (distribution) of deposits.


  1. What is the geographic breakdown of the IOM banks assets? By instrument (cash, loans, mortgages, other) and buy location (IOM/UK/Iceland/Other).
  2. Were the cash deposits representing private customer balances held in KSFIoM held in a segregated client account in KSF London ? Yes or no ?
  3. How much is in Iceland, and what is it's legal status. Is it in the form of a loan to Kaupthing that the bank is in default on, or what?
  4. How much is in the UK, and what is it's legal status: we have all read the rumors that 60% of the depositors money was with Kaupthung UK.
  5. How much money is in illiquid form, and what is a reasonable time scale for its recovery?
  6. Can we be given a liquidity profile of the assets and a summary of those assets in default?


  1. What is the significance of the October 24th deadline?
  2. What is the legal significance of formally going through the process of “winding up”? What does that mean? And does it close off any options for the survival of the KSF (IOM) operation as an ongoing enterprise or as a takeover?
  3. If there are dire consequences attached to the winding up process, can we petition for an extension of this deadline to allow time for further work?
  4. Can we be given a complete outline of the liquidation process and schedule from this point forward?
  5. Does Mr. Simpson have sufficient staff and resources to handle this matter?
  6. What can the KSF(IOM) Action Committee do to assist Mr. Simpson in his efforts on our behalf?


  1. We understand that KSF (UK) is a major debtor to KSF (IOM).
  2. Can you describe this intercompany loan portfolio – one loan or many?
  3. Is the UK company in technical default to the IOM company?
  4. As we seem to have a derivative interest in KSF (UK), can you please summarize its current situation?
  5. Is Kaupthung IOM an unsecured creditor of Kaupthing (UK)? Where do “we” rank relative to other Kaupthing (UK) creditors?


  1. In terms of the potential acquisition of KSF(IoM) as a going concern, are any potential buyers currently engaged in due diligence ? How advanced?
  2. Do all of the expressions of interest in KSF (IOM) involve honoring depositor balances?
  3. Can he provide comment on potential acquisitions of KSF (UK) or KSF parent in Iceland? And how these might effect KSF (IOM) depositors?
  4. Is there anything that the KSF(IOM) Action Committee can do as depositors to make KSF IoM more attractive to a potential buyers?
  5. Is it part of your mandate to actively solicit interest or even “broker a deal” among parties with a vested interest in this matter?
  6. Could KSF(IOM) retain an agent to structure a collaborative bailout? Given the probable shared liabilities of the many interested parties (Kaupthing hf, Icelandic govt, UK govt, IOM govt, IMF), might they might be persuaded to collectively fund or subsidize the acquisition of deposits by a third-party “white knight” bank.


  1. What precisely is being done to recover depositors monies believed to be either in the UK or Iceland?
  2. What precisely is being done and by whom to formally register our ownership of the monies held by UK government in form of frozen assets
  3. Has the UK acknowledged the presence of KSF IOM assets in the UK?
  4. Has the UK acknowledged the rights of IOM depositors to a share of 4bn that has been publicized?
  5. What is being done to manage a claim of ownership with the UK authorities?
  6. What is the current status of your discussions with Ernst & Young in London?
  7. Please confirm our understanding of the split between where the funds have gone (60% KSF UK, 25% loans in normal course of business & 15% IoM loans)
  8. How are long term loans made by KSF likely to be dealt with in terms of getting the money back to the depositors - drip feed the repayments back on an annual basis?
  9. Can he assess the estimated percentage recovery for ordinary IOM depositors at this point?


  1. What hopes are there for drawing upon the KSF parental guarantee?
  2. Can we be provided with a copy of the KSF parental guarantee?
  3. Has the guarantee been reviewed for its legal significance?


  1. What are the rules surrounding the distinction between in-flight transfers and in situ deposits?
  2. What is the cut off date for a transaction to be recognized as in-flight?
  3. How much of the KSF (IOM) deposit base is considered to be in-flight?
  4. How much of the in-flight transactions found their way to KSF (UK) accounts? Other intermediary banks?
  5. What is the current status of the CHAPS and BACS transfers initiated prior to Thursday 9 October but which were never completed?
  6. Will in-flight transactions rank ahead of in situ deposits?


  1. Where do we as depositors stand in line for payment with respect to any other creditors? Bond holders? Employee salaries? Suppliers?
  2. How much is owed to creditors ahead of the depositors? $ and %?
  3. Will all depositors be treated in the same way: individuals, small business accounts, charities etc? Would all receive the same % in the pound calculated on total deposits vs total asset recovery?


  1. We understand that PWC has retained legal counsel to press KSF (IOM) interests. Have claims or notices of action been filed? With KSF (UK)? With UK Treasury? With Kaupthing hf? With Icelandic Government?
  2. Which counsel is being used? Can you post the content of these claims to the KSF website?
  3. Can you summarize KSF(IOM)’s overall legal position with respect to these parties?


  1. Given the international nature of the customers of the former KSF(IoM), please can you organize a bi-weekly conference call during which you can update the depositors on any progress?

Thank you . . .

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 00:37

Thank you for developing this list of issues. At this stage, I envy your ability to think clearly. Hope to recover in time, hopefully with our savings returned to us.