WE NEED TO BE SO VERY CAREFUL NOW

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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Posted: Sat, 08/11/2008 - 06:19

We are entering a crucial phase in our existence as a group and we all need to be very aware of the situations facing us. There is a lot of talk emanating from the IoM regarding a possible solution to our current situation and, whilst we need to be sympathetic to their efforts, we also need to be aware of the consequences.

We are a very diverse group and as a result we have a lot of depositors in very varying situations. What’s best for one depositor may not necessarily be the best for another. I confess to having described attempts at keeping this group together to being akin to herding cats and I make no apologies for this because it’s true. This is not a criticism of anyone, just a fact.

The idea of restructuring the bank or ‘running it down’ may have some merit and it is worth looking closely at this situation. I for one would probably benefit from this as I have a substantial sum ‘at risk’ but this is certainly not true in a lot of cases. We know from our own poll that nearly half of us have less than £50k in KSFIOM and all of these depositors would see their funds returned under the DCS (how long that would take is another matter). The implementation of the IoM’s plan would delay liquidation and therefore prevent the DCS from ‘kicking in’ and this will be an issue.

I am on record as having said that £50k compensation would make little difference to me in light of my potential losses but I’m also painfully aware that this is not the case for a very large number of us. It is these people that we need to protect in the short term and we need to find a way to make this work for ALL of us.

I don’t profess to have a solution yet but we still need to face up to the fact that this could be an issue that rips this group apart. We will need understanding from both sets of depositors (those with less than £50k and those with a lot more) if we are to keep the strength we have as a group. Some authorities out there would like nothing more than for us to fracture and then split completely before disappearing out of existence. That would take a lot of heat off them. We need to stick together now more than ever and we need to show that we understand each other’s situations and that we are prepared to support each other.

I promise that the guys working on your behalf will do everything possible to find a solution that works for everyone but this will take your patience and understanding as well. For what it’s worth, I still firmly believe that there is a solution out there that will get us all what is rightfully ours, a 100% return of our deposits but we will need unity to achieve that solution.

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we hang together, or we hang separately . . .

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 25/11/2008 - 06:15

Whilst there certainly are differences between group members based on amounts in accounts, type of deposit/bond/term deposit, what we all have in common is that our finds have been taken from us. Whether one has £ 1,000 or £ 1,000,000, each of us has had our money taken from us by stealth and as surely as if it were taken by a robber of by fraud. If any of us are to receive access to our funds, all of us should receive access to our funds. The people who took our savings are just hoping for division amongst us and for the story to become old and to go away by itself. The most direct way for us to receive justice would be for the government that took our money from us to return it to us. Should they decide to do so, I, for one, would be prepared to say "thank you" and praise their brilliance and fairness in finding a "solution." We must maintain group solidarity or we invite the theives to enjoy that which they took from us.


Different Financial Interests

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Mon, 17/11/2008 - 12:17

I agree that we should stay together to the extent that we can. Although the DCS scheme only kicks in after a winding-up order is made by the court, it seems likely that the assets recovered by the liquidator provisionally will cover a large part of the first 50K for each saver. Small savers may, therefore, receive repayment more quickly from the actions of the liquidator provisionally than through the DCS and so have less of a financial interest in having the company wound up. In other words our interests may be less divergent than we think.


March on London

  • sannyasinman
  • 28/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 17/11/2008 - 11:56

It is not exactly a novel idea, but has anyone thought of organising a march through London to Parliament for example, complete with banners, and TV and media coverage? I saw that this took place in Holland and soon afterwards (coincidentally) there was a statement from the Icelandic Govt that Dutch depositors would be compensatedin full.
Can we organise a similarly unified, highly visible action such as this?
I would also like to know why everyone is using pseudonyms instead of real names? What are we hiding from?


The internet is a dangerous

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 18/11/2008 - 07:52

The internet is a dangerous place and anyone who provides information in excess of that actually required to obtain the desired result is foolish indeed.

That said, I thank those who have made themselves known to press and public alike to push the "cause" forward sincerely. It is not pleasant being in the public eye, and for me the nature of my business precludes me from being "public" outside the small circle of people who work within my key industry.

I have advised anyone who doesn't need to use any identity to continue in the manner, and I stick with this advice.


London demonstration

  • Julienne
  • 16/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Mon, 17/11/2008 - 12:40

Sounds great in theory - HOWEVER we are significantly different from our Dutch counterparts -- we are mostly ex-pats which means by that very nature we are flung all over the world and as such aare unlikely to make a very big impact as a demonstration group in London.

Why shouldn't some people use pseudonyms - in fact if you take a close look at many they represent initials / location etc... we have all been very present on this site and I don't think anyone is hiding...............


One Voice

  • Relentless Posse
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:48

I go with that comment.

We need to maintain Unity. It would be disasterous to allow Goverment to fracture us.

All the money need to be returned.This is a moral issue as well as a legal issue.

Settling for less is not an option.

After all the money is returned then we can START to chase down all the execs,ratings agencies and financial auditors and bring them to justice over this.


ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE

  • everhopeful
  • 11/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:09

Thank you Diver and Expat and all the others who are fighting for us and doing so much. We are in for more than Expat and so will fight to the finish until we all have our savings returned in full. We must stick together regardless of how much we are in for-remember this really is a case of "ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE"

Also be aware that according to various sources, the legal teams representing both PWC and Ernst and Young monitor our postings so pay attention to what you write.


everhopfuel - PWC and EY monitor positings !!!!!!!

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:25

I hope they don't I would be very surprised if they do.
They won't be doing anything that they can't justify on a timesheet.
Can you imagine, how they would explain this to a creditor committe?
I think they would be too busy responding to direct communication.


"business intelligence"

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 25/11/2008 - 06:18

Easy. The budget line item would be something like "Business Intelligence", as keeping an eye on the competition and rivals (such as KFSIOM depositors) is all part of doing business.


I can assure you that Simpson

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 02:53

I can assure you that Simpson will do it in his lunchbreak. Of course he will see what is going on here, do you think they waited for Hoppers lawyer to send the worlds most expensive letter before taking advice of money in flight? of course they didn't.


Simpson Assurance

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 03:00

The issue of inflights was predictable; how many people do you think were calling abiut the inflights.
Believe me the people on this forum might think they are clever put PWC has been through this all before.
He has a stautory duty in CA1931 to stop "things in action" where he is able.
There was maybe £50 Million in flight.
His job is to maximise the amount available to creditors; he didnt need to read these forums to find that out.

I know personally some of the lawyers working on this; there a set procedures and practices in this situation.
Its not the first time it has happened.

Its a common thread in bank insolvencies; all part of the process of which PWC are very experienced.


Common thread in bank

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 03:29

Common thread in bank insolvency it may be, assuming that of course bank insolvencies are common....

That was always the point, many transfers can be clawed back days or weeks after they have been processed, so seeing these come back is no surprise. While financially it doesn't make much difference to those not affected, it obviously may do to those whose transfers didn't progress - of course PWC did this so there can be no accusations that there was preferential treatment of any creditors.

One would hope that PWC "are clever", that is what they are paid very well for, but I bet you half a cooked bat that Mr Simpson has had a little delve through here, he would have to be silly not to.

He will be looking to see what the general mood is without having to wait for a creditors meeting.
Not only is this site a great resource for creditors, it is hugely valuable to PWC, they can guage response to their popularity, the chance of them continuining in office after the first creditors meeting and many more points where they know they have chinks in the armour.


PWC

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 04:12

Of course they would be looking, pretty dam stupid if they weren't, Ok most of what's here wouldn't be any use to them at all but there is still the odd piece of gold, couple of job creation walla's pay'd out of petty cash from UK or a.n. other office sifting through, pulling out the good bits, send daily summary to IoM - no sweat and peanuts to set up / run.


everhopfuel - PWC and EY monitor postings !!!!!

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:41

Responding to direct communication! That would be nice no response to any of our correspondence and refusing to take our phone calls.

I guess they are busy and I'm sure they can bury web browsing on their time sheets - indeed I strongly suspect they don't just read. But agreed this is a public site so assume all is being read whether it is or isn't.


I know they monitor the site

  • humphrey
  • 10/10/08 01/03/11
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 22:41

When I posted a comment in the Skandia thread that if anyone wanted a draft letter that I had sent to my IFA, EY emailed me and asked for a copy.


What cheek!

  • David9J
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 22:52

I hope you told them they could only have a copy if they gave us our 550 million quid back in return!


Manx - the legal teams of the

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:38

Manx - the legal teams of the liquidators would'nt have to justify, and there's been more than enough of the "code" words used on the site to have other parties keeping a watching brief.


of course they need to

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:49

of course they need to justify their time.
I am sure they have their hands full on the substantive issues rather than the chat


Substantive Issues

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:04

We can only hope so. Of course communication with the major creditors (us) would be one of the substantive issues that PWC are clearly not spending anytime on.


Major creditors? where? not

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 02:57

Major creditors? where? not here. Sure we have a couple of high rollers, but the big boys won't post here - they may take a look, but they won't post.

There are commercial depositors who PWC will be liasing with, people with so much money involved that it may be worth their while intervening.

It's like that car you had years ago, you invested so much in it that you couldn't afford to take it to the scrappy.


substantive issues

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:29

I guess its very expensive and resource intensive to keep all these people up to date, and also to manage the information dissemination.

Its all about applying resources I guess; ferretting away to get the assets back is the best use of their time rather than stroking account holders.

I dont think that Insolvency pratitioners recevie much customer care training p-)


manx ring me pleae thanks

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:46

manx ring me please thanks!


Forewarned is Forearmed as they say

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:22

Also be aware that according to various sources, the legal teams representing both PWC and Ernst and Young monitor our postings so pay attention to what you write.

Quite sure they do along with the squirrels from HMG / IoM / Iceland and probably many other sources legal & media alike & don't forget big brother US of - Forewarned is Forearmed as they say.


Currently 36 users and 146

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:19

Currently 36 users and 146 guests ...
So many internet surfers with nothing to do on a Sunday evening except read what we say here. It makes you wonder whether there's anything on TV ;-)

Skint, agree entirely ... of course, a lot of folks here have never used an Internet forum before. The public accessibility of the inter-webby-thing can work both ways.


True go mann

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:37

True go mann and just think from now to infinity someone would be able to get a transcript of this entire site from either side of the pond -- if they ever wanted it of course ;-)

such is the power of the web

Hi guy's, 1 sugar & a splash of milk please


ER II

  • Yorkie
  • 13/10/08 10/12/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:29

Did anyone else notice ER II was in the who's new section today. I was having a chuckle, wondering whether Her Majesty was reading the 007 saga which was being posted at the time.

Yorkie


I sincerely hope not. The men

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 03:02

I sincerely hope not. The men with the white coats and the Trapanal will be round next.

Still, I never found the Goodies funny either.


ER II

  • ER II
  • 09/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:33

One has to be careful with one's anonimity. One has to add that the author of 007 should be knighted after this situation horribilus is treminated. What does one think


ER II

  • poppytwo
  • 06/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 20:24

One thinks the author of 007 deserves a medal. A long time since one has seen such brilliance, certainly beats a lot of the supposed comedy scripts on the media at the minute. How are you and the corgies coping with the credit crunch?


ER II

  • ER II
  • 09/11/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 21:11

Well, my loyal subject, one does what one can really. My husband and I have had to make certain restraints to our fiscal budget. I am afraid one will not be able to repaint the railings next year alas I may also have to rely on ones family members to provide certain foodstuffs, I do sometimes wonder if it is warranted. As regards the dogs, they are happy and well although we have had to reduce their food intake by 1 biscuit per day
Goodnight all and bless all of you


Indeed Ma'am, for keeping the

  • Yorkie
  • 13/10/08 10/12/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:57

Indeed Ma'am, for keeping the troops in good humour over the weekend, during this situation horribilus. There are many who deserve to be so recognised for their great efforts for the good of all.


United we must be

  • Maud
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 17:37

Firstly a big thank you to our unpaid members who have taken the lead in all this and are directing us 'troops' in we hope the right direction. As a force we must stay together, fragmented we have little hope of being effective. We have a common aim and that is to recover 100% of OUR money and nothing less. We have already fragmented into depositers who have ïn-flights" and depositors who have 'unactioned-instructions" which I think is a shame but inevitable. KEEP POSITIVE, KEEP SUPPORTING THE TEAMS. if we are behaving like a pack of cats, can I be Pussy-Galore!!!!!!


Totally Agree Maud!!!

  • Anonymous
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 21:32

OOOhhhhhhhhhhhh I wanted to be her >>>> "Pussy Galore" well how about "OCTOPUSSY"

MANY HANDS MAKE LIGHT WORK!


I am finding it hard to

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 11:56

I am finding it hard to understand how one London group member seems hell bent on splitting us up and doing everything possible to ensure that the possibility of even a half way near favourable outcome with a "run-out" of the bank by the IoM government is prejudice, is now getting favourable ear with you guys.

I like many stand to lose substantially, and while it won't be "the end" for me, it will bollox up my right to enjoy the fruits of my UK taxed labours -

If I felt that someone was trying to unsettle things, I'd have a whip round and pay them off rather than have any possible hope of a favourable outcome dashed before it is given proper consideration.

While we are getting things off our chests, we have all had our chance to vent our spleen against people who may or may not deserve it, but now is not the time to have the front page of this site littered with comments about the shortcomings and morality of those involved and who even now can stick a huge spanner in the works with one well chosen comment in retaliation. There is a whole heap of stuff going on that we know nothing about, and frankly we probably never will - as frustrated as we are, let's keep comments on an adult and professional level - we don't know who is reading.


Clarify please

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 22:09

Can you please be more specific and clarify your first paragraph please.


I'll email you you later

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 03:05

I'll email you you later today - suffice to say the actions of one in particular are blatently transparent.


Capt Mainw - Its hard to keep the faith

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 18:06

I have found very mixed views with people on this site, I've met with a few, had my discussions, agreements and disagreements, but it has all remained very pleasant and rational.

Ive tried to help and give my views on the bond positions, and Ive been accused of being negative, I say realistic.

I am not sure how this site could put a spanner in things, but I do think it could dash or raise expectations, when, as you rightly say, much is happening that isn't know about.

I beleive in the will of the IOMG, FSC, PWC to resolve this in the best way possible.

I think anyone on the ground in the IoM would agree

Heres hoping for a good outcome


Well apart from the fact that

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 10/11/2008 - 03:18

Well apart from the fact that I would disagree with you a bit on the first point, from there on I would concur.

The solution lies not in the UK though HMG may serve as a conduit for assistance (non financial) .

You will find that IoMG and to a lesser extend the FSC and PWC will be the motive force in finding a solution, and I think we must all be aware that the chances of a 100% solution may not be high.

There have been comments regarding the proposed "soft closing" of the bank by the IoMG to be nothing more than a ruse to prevent the DCS kicking in, well that I very much doubt. If I have read the correct DCS, then in actual fact at this moment there is enough cause to start the DCS - the resolution by the directors and petitioning for liquidation is sufficient.
The IoMG may well have a deposit in the bank, but the rest of the depositors far exceed that deposit, and as such unless what the IoMG was proposing made sense (in other words for them to sling in that £150M and request outside aid from whoever) to enable the loanbook to be realised, funds in the UK to be liquified and realised, and to generally allow depositors not to be completely caned, then the depositors en masse would oppose it.

Regarding my first paragraph in the post above - this guy seems to be a "nyamuk" (mosquito) and may well be just annoying (perhaps just me, but I think not) - but in anycase I have a can of Baygon....


Hear Hear

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 19:37

I agree, and unless and until I hear different I am sure IOMG / FSC / PWC will be doing all they can to resolve this in the best possible manner.

IMHO it is also in the best interests of HMG and HMT - despite what is said in public - to find a quick and effective solution to this problem.

To this end, we must all still keep up the pressure on the Press, MPs etc just to make sure that our message keeps being heard.


Divided we fall

  • humphrey
  • 10/10/08 01/03/11
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 08:47

I know we have different amounts and different stories and took different paths to put our money in KSKIOM, but as a group we are formidable, we have front line leadership in various key locations and fantastic support behind those people.

Lets not lose that, we are going to be successful with getting our money back if we stay as a group.


Dear "Diver"

  • Jean-Charles Marlier
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 08:45

Dear "Diver"

You have my unreserved support and do hope that you have the support of all the non british,non residents as well.Whatever you decide I shall follow.

What about the idea that was "floated"some weeks ago,about appointing a lawyer's firm,if come to the worse scenario?Any update on that?

Have read a few minutes ago,an article by the International Herald Tribune,about the state of Iceland economy,wow!It makes a very depressing reading....

Still,looking forward to your next message Diver,wishing you all the very best and The London Team,in trying so hard to recover our hard earned money back in full!I have over 148k in that account,transferred from the Derbyshire Building Society,last December.
Once again,good luck!


Businesses are not covered

  • s_green101
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 03:47

I reply to the comment from Diver, particularly, quote, "less than £50k in KSFIOM and all of these depositors would see their funds returned under the DCS".

I would just like to remind that as a one man business with a business account held with KSFIOM I cannot look forward to even this result as businesses are not covered by the DCS. I can look forward to £0 return.

I would appreciate this point is take into consideration more as I know that I am not the only one here in such a position. I hope my point does not get forgotten. Thanks.


You can be sure

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 07:32

You can rest assured that we are very aware of the situation facing corporate clients in KSFIOM. These depositors were not mentioned in my posting above because I saw the primary difference of need being between the groups I highlighted. As it happens the corporate clients are probably most aligned with those depositors with over £50k in the bank so they're in good company.


Less than 50K, but want 100% for everyone

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 03:05

At the time of the colapse I had about 10K left in the account - half of which is in a frozen CHAPS transfer. I had luckly transfered the bulk of what was in the account during the week previous to the debacle. The money in the account (saved with the Derbyshire over many years) was to pay my son´s UK university fees - he and I are both UK citizens, I pay Uk taxes, but he is classed as an international student and has to pay 10K tuition fees a year and has still got another two years to graduate- but thats another story for another forum! Anyway I am 100% behind Diver and the other guys that are doing a great job and that we should go for 100% for everyone! Unity is essential.


WE NEED TO BE SO VERY CAREFUL NOW

  • Cocodora
  • 23/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 19:52

Thank you, Diver and Expat, for your splendid postings.
Could you find time to explain to an ignoramus like myself what you think Tony Brown means by "running down" or restructuring, and what such a procedure would mean to us depositors?
Thank you in advance. Carry on the good work!


Ok,points taken and

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 18:38

Ok,points taken and understood.People are very,very nervous.We are continually looking on every forum and every website there is for info'.This may not necessarally be the best thing to do.But there doesn't seem to be a central point for definitive,factual news.I personally, would feel better, knowing the forum "leaders" had direct contact with the Liquidator Provisional.This would allow us to "steer" ALL avenues of concern and seek assurances that no stone is unturned.He does work for us as i have said before and we ALL will be paying his enourmous fee note.This would undoubtably reduce the guessing and speculation that is prevelant.


Why do I find your posts

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 19:58

Why do I find your posts suspicious? You can spell, and have a good vocabulary, yet have not mastered the use of a space after punctuation marks?

And how, after some 3 weeks of site membership, you are unaware that the London and IOM Teams are in contact with everyone who matters?

If I'm wrong, 'cottesmore', I apologise unreservedly, but you are not quite ringing true to me.


In addition,please read my

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 20:40

In addition,please read my story onpage 2 of general discussions headed," any help out there. "
I note you (or the team) did not offer any help with my problem.
Thanks!


cottesmore try this

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 20:59

can you put a link to that post - can't find it, the shear quanity of posts that come, some get buried very quickly. (click on the small chain symbol that appear in the right hand corner of the post - this will open a pop up - you may have to enable pop ups - right click to copy the link and paste it into a new post)
Under normal conditions (what are these days) most posts do get read and replies posted by someone, but their are no actual leaders as such, everyone tries to help everyone else.


As i said,bloomin' novice. It

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 21:48

As i said,bloomin' novice.
It is on page 2 of general discussions.It is headed "any help out there?" it is about 18th topic down on that page.