UPDATED 28/1 - SUPPORT DIVER AT TREASURY SELECT COMMITTEE MEETING 3/2

  • Lucky Jim
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Tue, 27/01/2009 - 15:29

If you are in the UK and near London try to support Diver & DAG's Strategic objective by attending the Treasury Select Committeee Meeting on 3 February.

Venue: Portcullis House, the new building on Westminster Bridge Road opposite Big Ben.

Kick off 9.45am but early arrival is essential to get a seat & for security checks.

2 or 3 members have already indicated their willingness to attend... simply NOT enough to impress the Committee or the Press.

More information --> http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/treasury_committee/tre...

UPDATE 28/1-- If you can attend please now join the 'TSC Meeting 3/2/09' Group set up under GROUPS found under 'Groups' in menu bar at top of this page. The 'TSC Meeting 3/2.09' Group is near the bottom of the table of all the Groups. Click on 'join' in right-hand column & add in your name. THANKS !... L J

4.61905
Your rating: None Average: 4.6 (21 votes)

Comment viewing options
Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

PRESS RELEASE OF TREASURY COMMITTEE REPORT

  • Wombat761
  • 30/01/09 20/03/15
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 06/04/2009 - 01:38

COPIED FROM [http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/treasury_committee/tc0809pn28.cfm]

See Full Report at [http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtreasy.htm]

Charities should be compensated for losses from Icelandic banks, says Treasury Committee

The Treasury Committee, today releases its first Report in a series on the Banking Crisis, examining the consequences of the failure of the Icelandic banks in October 2008.

In the Report, the Committee considers three sets of depositors: local authorities, charities and UK citizens who deposited in the Isle of Man and Guernsey subsidiaries of the Icelandic banks. It considers the case for the provision of assistance by the UK Government to each of these depositors.

The Committee does not accept that there is a need to provide assistance to the local authorities. It does however recommend that, on this occasion only, all charities should be compensated for losses incurred as a consequence of the failures of the Icelandic banks. Finally, it agrees that the overarching principle should be that the UK Government cannot provide cover for deposits held by British citizens in jurisdictions outside the direct control of the United Kingdom. As such, while acknowledging the severe distress of those UK citizens suffering due to the Icelandic banking failure, the Committee can only recommend that the UK authorities work with the Isle of Man and Guernsey authorities to resolve these issues.

John McFall, Chairman of the Committee, commented:

"Our inquiry into the Banking Crisis has taken in a vast amount evidence in the last few months. The failure of the Icelandic Banks demonstrated the huge impact the collapse of large banks can have on a country’s economy.

The Committee came to the unanimous conclusion that it is only possible on this occasion to compensate charities and this is what we have recommended.

The work undertaken by the charitable sector often provides the most vulnerable elements of society with invaluable support. At a time when more people than ever are faced with difficult economic circumstances, we believe that it is imperative that charities have access to the funds that were provided to them by the public.”

The collapse of the Icelandic banks in October 2008

During the collapse of the Landsbanki bank in October 2008, the Chancellor of the

Exchequer took steps to safeguard the deposits of UK investors. The Report notes that his

comments regarding the intentions of the Icelandic Authorities had a serious impact on the confidence held in the remaining solvent Icelandic bank. However, the Committee saw no evidence that Kaupthing would have survived if the Chancellor had not expressed his views.

The use of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 however, clearly had considerable

implications for the Icelandic authorities in their efforts to maintain a functioning financial system. The use of this Act inevitably stigmatises those subject to it and a less blunt instrument would be more appropriate. The Report expresses concern that no appropriate legislation is available and calls on the Treasury to address this matter.

Charities and Local Authorities

The Report acknowledges that some local authorities will feel hard done by as a consequence of the limitations of Government support for them. Local authorities are however required to take their own decisions on the level of prudent, affordable capital investment. They have a duty to the taxpayer diligently to protect the money they are investing on their behalf. Some authorities have shown themselves to be better than others in this regard. Under these circumstances, the Report concludes it would seem perverse to reward those authorities who failed to protect their investment with yet more money from the taxpayer.

It recommends that the Government consider the case for providing charities with further statutory guidance relating to the management of a charity’s finances and investments. It also urges the Government to take steps to clarify what protection is available to charities under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.

Protecting British citizens

The Committee acknowledges the severe distress shared by many individuals as a result of this banking failure. A difficult judgment, though, has to be made in assessing the overall case for assistance. Those involved in the failure of the offshore subsidiaries of the Icelandic banks have suffered losses to date, and many of those affected are British citizens. On the other hand, the Committee also acknowledges the clear validity of the overarching principle that the UK Government cannot cover deposits held in institutions outside its direct regulatory control. The Report urges the UK authorities should work with the Isle of Man and Guernsey authorities to resolve these issues, especially given the complexities arising from the take over of the Derbyshire building society.

The Committee further recommends that the UK authorities should seek to work closely with other interested parties such as the Financial Services Commission of the Isle of Man to maximise the transparency of the administration of KSF(UK) in order to facilitate the best outcome for all depositors including those with funds in KSF(IOM).

Lastly, bearing in mind the heavy coverage in the financial press of Iceland's fragility the Committee was surprised that offshore savers using independent financial advisers were not advised of the changing risk profile of their savings. It hopes to explore further the role of advice to customers in its forthcoming inquiry into consumers and the banking crisis.

John McFall said:

"The Committee has received and is grateful for the hundreds of letters sent by individuals who have been affected as a result of this banking failure. The consequences of the Icelandic banks' failure are clearly serious and distressing for all concerned. While we have much sympathy for the fate of all depositors, the Committee unanimously agreed that UK taxpayers cannot be expected to cover deposits held in institutions outside the UK's direct regulatory control. However, we are today strongly urging the UK authorities to work with those of the Isle of Man and Guernsey to resolve these issues.

This aspect of our Banking Crisis inquiry has also raised many new questions about issues such as consumer advice and cross-border regulation of financial institutions. Considerable taxpayer support has been required to provide rapid compensation to onshore UK depositors in Icelandic banks that were 'passported' into the UK regulatory system. This area of European law requires further consideration, and the Committee intends to return to it in a future inquiry onto the banking crisis within its international context.

Mr McFall is available for comments on the report today on 07730987802 (mobile) or 07644 004586 (pager). For all other media inquiries, please contact Laura Humble, Media Officer, on 020 7219 2003/07917 488489/ humblel(?)parliament [dot] uk

FURTHER INFORMATION:

Committee Membership is as follows: Rt Hon John McFall (Chairman), Nick Ainger, Mr Graham Brady, Mr Colin Breed, Jim Cousins, Mr Michael Fallon (Sub-Committee Chairman), Ms Sally Keeble, Mr Andrew Love, John Mann, Mr George Mudie, John Thurso, Mr Mark Todd, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Sir Peter Viggers.

Media Enquiries: Laura Humble, Tel 020 7219 2003 / 07917 488 489, email - humblel(?)parliament [dot] uk

Specific Committee Information: treascom(?)parliament [dot] uk Tel 020 7219 5769

Committee Website: www.parliament.uk/treascom

Watch committees and parliamentary debates online: www.parliamentlive.tv

Publications / Reports / Reference Material: Copies of all select committee reports are available from the Parliamentary Bookshop (12 Bridge St, Westminster, 020 7219 3890) or the Stationery Office (0845 7023474). Committee reports, press releases, evidence transcripts, Bills; research papers, a directory of MPs, plus Hansard (from 8am daily) and much more, can be found on www.parliament.uk


Treasury Committee 3/2/2009

  • Wombat761
  • 30/01/09 20/03/15
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 12/02/2009 - 23:55

Diver did an absolutely splendid job on behalf of all DAG members at the hearing
Transcript is a MUST READ at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtreasy/uc14...

Thanks Diver


well done

  • ripped Off
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 14:09

thank you so much for all the hard work that you are all doing, very much appreciated


MPs to open detailed investigation into S&F takeover

  • Hoping and coping
  • 16/10/08 31/07/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 01:04

Times Online report posted as new News Item. Did anyone watch the FSA giving evidence?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_...

Kaupthing takeover of Singer & Friedlander: Financial regulator was 'warned'
MPs are to investigate an Icelandic bank's takeover of Singer & Friedlander Group as fresh details emerge about the deal

"The FSA, which told the committee that it had made a full assessment of Kaupthing and had been told by Iceland's regulators there was no reason to block the deal, will appear before the committee again on February 25 with a more detailed testimony."

Told by ICELAND'S regulators that there was no problem?!

"John Aspden...said that he had approved the transfer of £550million of funds from KSF in the Isle of Man to the London branch only because of “assurances” and a “memorandum of understanding” that existed between his office and the FSA. This suggested that the money would be safer in London, he said....

"The administration, sanctioned by the FSA, left more than 8,000 savers in the Isle of Man out of pocket. Britain initially refused to guarantee depositors' savings. The Icelandic Government subsequently sued the UK, in a case that is ongoing."

"out of pocket"????!!!!

"Britain INITIALLY refused to guarantee depositors' savings"???


Did the reporters understand what was happening?

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 06:57

"The bank's collapse left thousands of savers with its Isle of Man and Guernsey branches"


Have your say on report

  • webrooster
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 08:28

Looks like an opportunity to flood the Times with our side of the story?


I have just this minute

  • adrienne
  • 10/10/08 13/05/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 21:02

I have just this minute arrived home having been at hearing and meeting and post post meetings all day. I will write up some views tomorrow. Three key take aways

  1. UK TSC clearly looking for the right answers and asking provoking solutions. possibly looking to help
  2. IOM weak-willed pathetic appearance. dire in the extreme
  3. post meeting interesting update from Ziggy, but alarming message that we are on a path of no return - choose the lesser of two evils - SOA or DCS (with a few caveats) or liquidate.

I dont think we have left every stone unturned, there are still options that we havent pursued to the nth degree. My opinion that we need more time and rapid direct action - ie delay again to allow the UK TSC to get its answers together, and for IOM to get a loan organised.

We need to galvanise into action immediately ( if not sooner) to get the IOM raising funds, not thinking of better ways to redistribute our funds.

we need to help the UK govmt understand ways to re-dress the wrong doings

If all else is exhausted negotiate our way through SOA / DCS / law suits. Do not focus on that as a destination right now!


I am not sure that the

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 09:28

I am not sure that the options are between SoA/DCS and a delay to see what might be forthcoming from the UK after more investigations from the TSC.

As far as I understand it, neither the SoA or the DCS would preclude the return of monies deposited in the UK at a later stage.


That's taken as 'a given'

  • conned
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 12:18

Yes expatfrance1 that's taken as 'a given' but would only happen in respect to what is left over after the luquidator had repaid the IOM for the compensation paid out under the DCS, and after the costs had been paid.


Whilst an SoA, as I

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 12:57

Whilst an SoA, as I understand it, would only repay the IOM after all depositors had received a set % return. Still not ideal but we must really understand the nuances of each scheme before coming to any decision.


DCS misunderstandings

  • Nixi
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 18:50

I think there's a lot of misunderstandings about this..
As far as I can see from the documents, the DCS can ONLY claim costs from people who claim through it.. and then only after they have been paid full compensation....
So, this makes it VERY difficult to decide whether to claim via the DCS if your deposit was a bit OVER 50k!!


which of the two SoA or DCS?

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 10:29

It seems crucial that we get the correct answer on this. Whatever scheme we choose, we must know for certain that we can keep the issue open, aiming for eventual 100% return.

I have over 50.000 deposited, but could live with, say, 20.000 returned to help with some relocation expenses. This would suit me a bit, but I could still maybe find better paid work. But I do feel so sorry for those retired folk and much worse off by all of this.)

I now feel that IOM is too pathetic to negotiate with, otherwise a possible short-term solution would be for them to pay off under 50.000 depositors in full and make a hardship payment of X amount to those of us who want to continue with further action. We could, as we wished, then give over a portion of this to legal action.

I've only seen the first third of the TSC hearing, although got from that that the TSC is at least very seriously concerned to get to the bottom of this. But now we have to somehow ensure that our needs are considered, and in a shorter time-frame, in the midst of this larger investigation. This is now difficult since even the IOM seems not on our side, after all.

There are so many unanswered and newly emerging questions that we MUST keep plugging away at. The site is full of disparate threads and ideas at the moment, understandably, given how devastated we all are, but I'm trusting that the better informed of us will come up with a new plan.


broke2, I agree with you

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 10:50

broke2,

I agree with you totally. At the moment there is so much rumour and mis-information in these forums that it is difficult to determine fact from fiction.

As far as I understand it, both the DCS and SoA would allow for further distributions to be made as and when additional funds were realised. What we will need is facts so that all options can be compared and an informed decision made without some of the hysteria that is present.

My personal opinion is that our greatest hope is to show negligence on the part of the UK authorities (FSA) and there seems to be a number of opportunities to do this. The takeover of S&F by Kaupthing, as indicated by Tony Shearer and the TSC, the takeover of Derbyshire BS, the change of business structure that suddenly meant that KSFIOM changed from being a subsidiary of KSFUK to being a subsidiary of Kaupthinh hf, the lake of communication between the FSA and FSC prior to putting KSFUK into administration, whether the funds transfered to KSFUK were managed in the way that the FSA had indicated.


Diver, Liebenk - stars!!

  • sambururob
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 23:07

Diver - excellent!! Liebenk - great job on the mobilisation front!! Thanks to all.
Push for more time? Count us in if that is what is needed.
TSC seem by their tone to be sympathetic but it needs time for their (considerable) influence to be felt around the corridors of power.
IOMG seeming more and more like a parish council who are out of their depth (and merely genuflect to TSC) and needing guidance from HMG Treasury, Insurance compamies, local authorities, charities and DAG.
c.f. Senior Citizens Party we are organised, proactive and more au fait with the situation.
Proud to be a member of DAG - let us keep 100% for all within a reasonable time frame as an achievable objctive.


Well Done Diver and your team

  • Zeebee
  • 08/11/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:02

Well Done Diver and your team for your tireless effort for our common cause .


Diver - thank you

  • Clogs2
  • 20/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 21:10

I have just managed to watch your excellent contribution at TSC today - thank you so much for handling questions so well.


Next assault on IoM

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:33

IoMG were given plenty of opportunity to lay the blame at the regulator / HMG etc,. they choose not too - obviously under orders from HMG -- it was all too apparent from their responses.

However my view of the TSC view and the way their questioning was going - the fact they will have at least one more sitting where they are requesting additional evidence from Mr Shearer and more former directors of S&F re - several meetings with FSA, they also requested minutes / file notes of the meetings FSA > FSC. The TSC are I suspect leaning very much toward yet another regulatory failure. This is going to be our best option to pursue action and hopefully compensation - it may require additional waiting time for the TSC final submissions and then we have a legal inroad albeit the FSA and UK - this should provide the nutcrackers required to open up the FSC and pin them to the ground for their failures.

We are not going to get 100% from liquidation or from any form of SOA (unless the IoMG want to pay to keep their secrets), it's going to long drawn out and bloody - FSA / FSC / IoMG will all have casualties, our biggest problem is the cost of all this.


Reflection on TSC

  • Dave1
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 22:01

Skintagainow, I agree
It seemed to me the IOM govt reps were at pains not to place blame with the UK or regulators. Carefully chosen words to avoid conflict. Looks like IOM have bigger political issues than just KSFIOM to worry about.
I think our options are becoming increasingly clearer:
1. push IOM for 100% guarantee. Otherwise, advise them DAG members will vote for DCS, as currently it offers nothing less than SOA. We know IOM want to avoid the DCS but it's an inevitable consequence of their procrastination, driven by their selfish desire to minimise fallout for the IOM, and less real concern for depositors who placed funds on their island (by the way, I am in for >GBP350k, so a gaurantee of just 50k is no good for me!!!).
2. support yet further delay, while E&Y deliberate on %return of 550mln in KSF UK, TSC investigates FSA/FSC communications leading up to 8th October, Tony Shearer has his full say on Kaupthing takeover of S&F UK, charities and local govts in UK press their cases for direct govt support, someone (exactly who I'm not sure?) pursues Kaupthing hf parental guarantee, IMF looks on, EU considers Iceland, heaven forbid.... HMG gets sympathetic..etc, etc
I hate to say it, but with so many options open, it's a tough choice. Get DCS going, and let PWC run amoke with sale of loan book and expenses, with returns probably drawn out and minimised, or suffer in silence even longer, with just a glimmer of hope of better returns....


TSC

  • shafted
  • 10/10/08 12/12/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:28

Does anyone know what power the TSC has over the outcome of their findings, can they order the Gov to act to if you like give the 550 back, is there a timeframe for some sort of report from them?


TSC

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 19:00

I believe that they can only make findings and recommendations. No power to enforce, but considerable influence


MP3 of today's Treasury Select Committee meeting

  • allyourbase
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 17:00

Some people seem to have been asking for this, and/or are having trouble viewing the video on parliamentlive.tv.

I've made a MP3 of today's Treasury Select Committee meeting available. It's 30 MB, and is just over 2 hours long. I missed the start of the meeting and the end, but the recording includes Tony Shearer's "smoking gun" testimony as well as many of Diver's excellent comments. Thanks again to Diver for his fantastic performance, I particularly liked the "diabolical accusation" line.

Please download it soon - I'm only planning on keeping it available for a few days.


TSC meeting MP3 now in News Items

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:12

Thanks for doing that - I've grabbed a copy and posted it as a news item here

I'm planning on doing the same with the video once I get a chance. Can anyone clarify copyright issues? Presumably this material can be freely distributed with a suitable copyright notice included?


Unable to download

  • rapata
  • 13/10/08 03/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:17

Ally, When I click on the link it opens a blank page and nothing happens. Any suggestions.


R: Unable to download

  • Mandy_Italy
  • 13/10/08 31/03/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:13

Rapata,

If you right click the link, you are given the option to save it (copy it) onto the hard disk and play with Windows Media Player.


Tony Shearer ..Warning on Iceland bank fitness - BBC news -

  • C_south_africa
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 13:09

Warning on Iceland bank's fitness http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7866729.stm

Kaupthing's takeover of Singer & Friedlander was approved by the FSA
The management of the Icelandic Kaupthing bank were "not fit and proper" to control a UK bank, MPs have been told.

Tony Shearer, former head of investment bank Singer and Friedlander (S&F), told MPs that he warned UK regulators in 2005 when Kaupthing bought his bank.

But last October UK savers in Kaupthing had to be rescued by the authorities when that bank faced collapse.

The Financial Service Authority said his account of events was inaccurate.

The former S&F chief executive revealed his warning in evidence to MPs on the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee, which has been investigating the circumstances surrounding last year's banking crisis.

'Very strange'

He said an examination of Kaupthing's accounts for 2004 revealed that the directors had borrowed £19m to invest in their own bank's shares and were on four-year contracts, while only one came from outside Iceland.

These are not the sort of people I want to work with

Tony Shearer, former S&F chief executive

He said they had no experience of international banking, and that half the bank's profits came from investing in the financial markets, but only 10% from conventional banking.

"They were very different, they ran their business in a very strange way, it was a very different operation," he said.

"It was a young group of people who were very inexperienced. I had doubts right from the beginning. We simply didn't trust them," he added.

Mr Shearer said that after meeting the Icelandic directors in Reykjavik in 2004 in the run-up to the takeover, he discovered they were all very young, and not the conventional sort of banker he was used to dealing with.

"My assessment is that these are not the sort of people I want to work with," he said.

Mr Shearer resigned from the merged bank Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (KSF) in November 2005 after the deal went through because he was "not comfortable" running the UK operation under its new owners.

He explained that he and two senior colleagues passed on their concerns about Kaupthing's management issues, corporate governance, and quality of earnings to the Financial Services Authority (FSA) in April 2005.

But the response of the regulator, he said, was to continue approving the takeover.

However, the FSA has questioned his remarks.

"We do not believe the statement made to the Treasury Select Committee represents an accurate summary of the events," the FSA said.

Meltdown

Kaupthing, Iceland's biggest bank, was nationalised by the Icelandic authorities during that country's financial meltdown in the autumn of 2008.

In the UK it had 160,000 UK customers, mainly through its international internet bank Kaupthing Edge, which had started its UK operation in early 2008.

However their money was held by the bank's UK subsidiary, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (KSF), which had been formed after the Icelandic bank's takeover of Singer & Friedlander in 2005.

There were an additional 3,000 UK customers whose money was held directly at KSF.

When Kaupthing was rescued last October its UK business was closed down by the UK authorities.

The government stepped in to guarantee all the savers' money by arranging for all their accounts to be transferred to the Dutch bank ING Direct.

However people who had money on deposit in KSF's Isle of Man bank (KSF-IoM), totalling around £840m, are still waiting for compensation.

The Manx government is offering them an initial £10,000 each and intends that eventually 71% of KSF-IoM account holders will get all their money back within two years.


Article on BBC News web site

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 16:32

Article on BBC News web site now also includes link to DAG site.

Well done Diver and everyone else who supported him this morning.


In fact also see all these -

  • Sophie
  • 16/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline

Also see-

  • Sophie
  • 16/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline

TSC hearing 3 Feb 2009 - IOM position

  • banna
  • 15/10/08 01/03/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 13:01

The IOM position seems fixed.
I thought Brown - Chief Minister - made it quite clear that
a. IOM Govt does not think UK did anything wrong
b.IOM is not going to press UK Govt to return blocked money
c.IOM will not go beyond the current DCS levels
d. IOM does not see payment of compensation in less than 2 years.
e. IOM will not seek UK loan to make payout at 100%

We all need to think what our strategy is to be faced with that.

I think we should continue to press very vigorously on all IOM contacts to change those IOM positions but our strategy has to address the question : If we fail to persuade IOM to change what do we do next and what is our long term strategy?

We got some pointers from
1. Mr Shearer's evidence
2. The question put to Brown inviting him to say the IOM would take legal action against the UK - a question/hint that he bottled
3.The questions about FSC/FSA agreements and MOU
4. The inference that Darling/Treasury/FSA moved precipitately and wrongly against KSF UK
- but all these seem to point to litigation and I don't know whether we could win and what would be the cost.

I don't know whether our lead group has ever looked at whether we could put up a joint action with the insurance groups in KSF IOM and/or charities and/or Guernsey Action Group.
We all seem to be naturally on the same side even if view points differ on some aspects.


Our Next Strategy

  • merlina
  • 26/01/09 01/06/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 16:31

Banna, you ask what our next strategy should be. In my opinion, after hearing Tony Brown, I suggest we target their industry. First Anglo Irish Bank IOM, it already has a question mark over it, whether they are protected 100%. It wouldn't take us 5 minutes to bring that bank down. Then there are all the other Irish banks - Tony Brown saying they are protected, when we know there is no money there to pay them out.

I have gone through every emotion there is in the past four months and right now I feel that if I am to lose out then I'll take thrm with me.


future strategy - IOM banking industry

  • banna
  • 15/10/08 01/03/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 17:13

Merlina,
I agree that one of the planks of our future strategy might well be an attack on the IOM financial base - but that is destructive and will not get us our money back.
I therefore think that until Feb 19 we should work hard at getting IOM to change its mind - although I think our chances of success are not great.
If we pursue the destructive track we have to consider the possibility that IOM could change its mind about the DCS and decline to pay out. If they did that would certainly be the end of their finance industry, but when pressed to the limits people take extreme decisions.
Personally, having seen their Chief Minister at work this morning, I have no belief that IOM has the courage to do the right thing : in my view they should recognise that we and they have been royally betrayed by the UK Treasury and the FSA and they should be leading us into battle to get those funds returned from London. If they had the right attitude they could get all the big corporate investors in their island plus all we depositors, plus the Charities plus the LGA to battle together. But they are blinkered and do not look at the big picture.They do not yet realise that when one is attacked as IOM was by Darling at the last TSC one has to attack in return.
Sitting back and letting big neighbour squash you is the sure fire way to defeat and domination.
As an aside, I was much more impresssed by the Guernsey attitudes and 'speak'


banna, i am not sure what was

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 17:49

banna,

i am not sure what was so impressive about the Guernsey representatives this morning. As a depositor with both KSF and Landsbanki I have first hand experience of both Governments and although the IOM may be a bit slow the Guernsey authorities have done absolutely nothing.

They have washed their hands of the Landsbanki depositors completely, there is no depositor compensation scheme and they have stated they will not use Guernsey money to help depositors.

Do not be fooled by their slick suites and public school accents.


guernsey attitudes

  • banna
  • 15/10/08 01/03/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:21

Hi Expat France,
You have illustrated exactly what I was referring to when I said I preferred their attitude and speak.
They were clearly there to defend Guernsey's position and rights and were not half hearted in doing so. I am sure as a depositor faced with that attitude it might be more difficult to accept, but had the IOM Govt been as forthright in their dealings with us we would not have wasted the last 3 months in fruitless discussion and we might have made more progress in getting our money back.
When I'm faced with a negotiation I've always found it easier to reach a solution when all parties speak their minds frankly. If the other party does not speak its mind clearly you are never forced to face the facts, which is usually the spur to finding a solution. Instead you waste your time hopefully imagining everything will turn out for the best.


Banana Attitude

  • IanAbroad
  • 11/10/08 13/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:57

You are correct.
three of them seemed to have their wits about them, but Tony Brown and that whispering fool next to him were just using up valuable space.
"We will need to consider......"
"We would need to discuss......"
And as for those Tony Blair hand movements, where do they come from?
All in all, a lack lustre performance from TB.
I hope plenty of the IoM voters see the kind of guy they have at the top.

The IoM contingent was only saved more embarrassment by some forthright talking by Aspden.


Take out the IoM banks you also take out funding for the DCS,

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 16:58

Take out the IoM banks you also take out funding for the DCS, remember the money IoMG has earmarked for DCS is for any and all bank failures up to Oct 2009 - more banks that fail, less in the pot for each.

leaves only the SOA..

So I guess all now will vote for SOA -- not that our votes will matter the insurance companies will take of that - it's SOA or nothing...

At least with the SOA it's not dependent on other bank failues.


DCS

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:06

In this nightmare things get a mixed up, sleep deprivation does terrible things to you!
Did I imagine it or has it been said somewhere that IOM are going to reduce their DCS back to £20K later this year?


DCS

  • Tricky Dicky
  • 24/10/08 30/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:09

The upgraded DCS runs from 8/10/08 until 8/10/09, it then reverts to its old amounts


DCS

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:16

So does that alone not tell us all something fishy about IOM???


Why would you want to unleash your misery on depositors in AIIOM

  • steveservaes
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 16:47

I understand your frustrations Merlina but some DAG depositors and other innocent individuals just like you have deposits in Anglo Irish and other Irish Banks and are unable to withdraw them. Why do you want to put them through the same hell as we have suffered? In any case - all the Anglo and other Irish banks are guaranteed directly by the Irish guarantee so even if they are in theory also covered by the IOM guarantee/DCS they would be covered by Ireland if that failed to pay out - although of course we might expect some sort of considerable delay before the non-payout of IOM compensation might be established.


No surprises then

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 15:47

Some of us have been telling depositors since last October that the IOM government could not be trusted at all or relied upon in any way. Now perhaps you will believe us.


Money out

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:20

All my gut instincts are telling me that if I still had any money in IOM now I would get it out pretty sharpish!!
Agree with you elgee, very slippery customers in cahoots with insurance cos. and totally spineless!!


Money out

  • rapata
  • 13/10/08 03/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:41

Although the amount was nothing in comparison to what we stand to lose in KSFIOm, we did have some funds in Woolwich Guernsey which we moved right after our 'safe' bank went bust. I wonder how many others have done the same.


Chief Minister Brown showed himself to be HMG's poodle

  • Lucky Jim
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 13:53

banna - that's a short, neat summary of the TSC Meeting.

The whole morning was fascinating.

Brown showed himself as HMG's poodle. Because of the bigger picture (playing ball with the big boys of Whitehall to save the IOM) he has not the political bottle, clout or moral integrity to do the right thing to secure 100% return of depositors' money.

I am afraid that short of a miracle before 19 February there's no way that the IOM Government is going to come up with a SoA that will assure a 100% return of depositors' money.

I feel that this TSC will have melted the wax for the seal on the demise of the IOM as a financial services centre.

It's now going to be liquidation triggering the DCS. This will leave legal action as DAG's only hope of fulfilling its Mission.


IOM letting us down

  • Codpeace
  • 23/10/08 30/11/12
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 14:23

It seems that the IOMG are not on our side - Should we send a deluge of emails to them to ask why they are deserting us? Any other suggestions how we can get them to change course and do the right thing? I would prefer that we all take the same action and would appreciate some direction from the team once they have had a chance to debrief.


Agree - but good luck contacting IOM parliamentarians

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 22:06

IOM Government are on their own side. That is, they wish to minimise any responsibility or cost to themselves, while it is clear that they colluded in sending our savings to the UK for their own political purposes. It was obvious from Tony Brown's churlish and cantankerous performance before TSC that KSFIOM depositors are seen as an unwelcome burden. How different from when they were taking our money! His sole concerns seem to be to avoid offense to the UK Government and to maintain control of IOM "independence".

It is sickening that young Mr Aspden could give our life and retirement savings away and have to bottle to sit there as though his actions were perfectly fine. The callousness of the IOM Government representatives was monumental. Both displayed a degree of truculence that calls up images of small boys, caught out misbehaving. Rather than admit what they had done, they truculently maintain that you did nothing wrong. Stating that "there is nothing unusual about upstreaming funds", at a time when the Iceland banks were being brought down, is at best woefullly disingenuous. No heart, no conscience, no soul.

Whilst the UK FSA may have made its share of errors, or may have acted from sinister motives, suggested by the continued "sealed" status of the relevant documents, the IOMG and FSC have also done their part by colluding in giving our funds away to Kaupthing UK and into the control and likely eventual use of the UK Treasury. If private individuals act in this manner, they are likely to be tried for fraud. When governments do the same thing, they pass laws and regulations that deny any redress by the injured and dispossessed parties. There is an old saying that the reason that governments take on organised crime is that they do not like the competition from private sources. That certainly appears to be the case for us KSFIOM savers.

In the run-up to Tuesday's TSC meeting, I discovered how difficult it is to contact IOM parliamentarians. In the end, many of my e-mails bounced because of invalid (@gov.iom) e-mail addresses. After an hour of searching, I was unable to obtain e-mail addresses for most IOM House of Keys members. The highest quality reply that I received (the only one from anyone on the IOM) was from the Bishop of Soror and Man, who wrote that he was mindful of the plight of KSFIOM depositors, that he had little political influence, and that he will pray for us. His Excellency's kind message is most appreciated as well as instructive. Pray to the Almighty for help, as none is coming from IOM.

So, quo vadis? What, if anything, do we do next. I feel inclined toward despair after watching the TSC session last Tuesday. Any ideas?


Heart sick

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 07/02/2009 - 22:23

Well said aand very true

I have have had the same trouble with the IOMG emails invalid or whatever also had the same email from Bishop Sodor.

After attending the TSC meeting i can only say that I am heart sick at the behaviour of the IOMG.

These people are going to let us drown they are so mean spirited they would charge for a life belt on the Titanic.


drglowry - well posted see my ads

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 07/02/2009 - 17:45

Always agree with your pists and thank you very much for your syphatico email to me two weeks ago before I got more embroiled with a trip to the IOM a trip through the snow to the TSC hearing and an ad to go into the IOM newspapers - I've been working day and night without stopping to do my own work for two weeks now (not to mention the past 4 months like so many of us - it's dredaful to relaze how few respond but we had some good and sypathetic MP's at the TSC I think) - ad to go into the 3 IOM newspapers next week 30cm depth as a last call to action before Feb 14th and 19th


What next. IOM?

  • roddy
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 18:22

Thanks and well done Diver, that can't have been easy today.
Tony Brown! What can you say. He seems to feel the IOM can sort this on their own. I think its about time that he knows what/who he is dealing with. A concerted action focused on the IOM, more letters, emails, phone calls and even protests on the island. We feel like sacrificial lambs at the moment, but one thing is for sure , we will go down fighting!!!
Sorry, just found him so infuriating.


Tell us what to do next

  • Flower
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:03

After IOM Govt's disgraceful performance today we can only expect scant respect to us depositors in their presentation of a solution later this month. Tony Brown appeared sly, spineless and heartless. He obfuscated the truth on a number of occasions stating that everything is under control and we would be repaid £1000, or possibly £10,000. Wow...big deal! And, we could be repaid part of the monies owed within 2 yrs. Wow again! Has he not heard our stories and the dilemma they've put us all in. How our homes and our futures are being destroyed. Monies in drips & draps are never going to help most of us out whose savings had been highly committed for immediately-needed payments hence bringing us down since we cannot pay.

Tony Brown was adamant at not involving the UK Govt, not blaming them, not even soliciting their assistance out of this fiasco.
Obviously he's protecting the very existence of his own IOM govt. He was given many opportunities but he snidily repeated that IOM had everything under control.

Can someone pls guide us as to what we should do in the coming few days to show how unhappy we are and how our trust in IOM Govt is at an all-time-low.

Many thanks to Diver for another brilliant performance.


Tell us what to do next

  • Flower
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 03/02/2009 - 20:02

After IOM Govt's disgraceful performance today we can only expect scant respect to us depositors in their presentation of a solution later this month. Tony Brown appeared sly, spineless and heartless. He obfuscated the truth on a number of occasions stating that everything is under control and we would be repaid £1000, or possibly £10,000. Wow...big deal! And, we could be repaid part of the monies owed within 2 yrs. Wow again! Has he not heard our stories and the dilemma they've put us all in. How our homes and our futures are being destroyed. Monies in drips & draps are never going to help most of us out whose savings had been highly committed for immediately-needed payments hence bringing us down since we cannot pay.

Tony Brown was adamant at not involving the UK Govt, not blaming them, not even soliciting their assistance out of this fiasco.
Obviously he's protecting the very existence of his own IOM govt. He was given many opportunities but he snidily repeated that IOM had everything under control.

Can someone pls guide us as to what we should do in the coming few days to show how unhappy we are and how our trust in IOM Govt is at an all-time-low.

Many thanks.