TAX DODGERS

  • 208
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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Posted: Fri, 24/10/2008 - 13:56

I believe it is important for us all to try and dispel the "handle" of tax dodgers that seems to be attached to us. We need public sympathy and as long as we keep getting the "oh well they are rich tax evaders, fat cats" etc we may be hitting a wall as far as the public out there is concerned. We need the public on our side. We need people to actually care that we have had our money stolen.

The politics go on behind closed doors but when the doors open we may still need all the public support and sympathy we can get.

On Channel 4 news yesterday evening Jon Snow said:

"You know as well as I do one of the reasons why these tax havens exist is for tax evasion, tax avoidance and for money laundering".

Today I have emailed Jon Snow. Lets get the right message out there!!!

Below is my e-mail to Jon Snow

Dear Jon,

Re: Your statement referring to offshore jurisdictions during last evening's news broadcast

" You know as well as I do one of the reasons why these tax havens exist is for tax evasion, tax avoidance and for money laundering" .

My wife and I were deeply distressed by the above remark which we feel to be offensive, callous and incorrect.

We live in the Isle of Man and, along with many other residents, used KSF (IOM) as our high street bank, having both instant access and savings accounts with the bank. Your remark only added to the anguish we are feeling.

Many island residents have been left without access to their day to day money and potentially without their savings. Some are feeling suicidal. In addition to individuals, charities on the Isle of Man also stand to lose a lot of money. (Please see attached report). Do you consider Isle of Man residents and charities as tax evaders or money launderers ? I am sure that you are not interested in tales of island farmers whose life savings appear to have been wiped out or people whose retirement savings may be lost and are too old to work to rebuild their pension, tradesmen who now cannot access their money and may go out of business, hospice money that may now have gone. Need I go on?

I have been told of too many stories of suffering, not only on the island but worldwide, caused by this situation. As you know there are people living overseas who were unable to leave their savings in the UK and so had no alternative but deposit their money offshore. Many of these people find themselves destitute and living on the good nature of neighbours -their hard earned savings wiped out.

I hope I have made it clear that people bank in the Isle of Man for practical and legal reasons.

David xxxxxx

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Tax Dodging? European Savings Directive

  • lostthelot
  • 21/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:42

Playing Devil's advocate here a little (and in my first post too!) but emailing about personal circumstances, i.e. I'm not a tax dodger etc etc is on too personal a level, a little like some of the initial coverage to the plight of KSF depositors.

The guy on channel 4 last night had the right idea, go in with teh facts about what has happened, not personal circumstances.

Might I suggest that you all read the following

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/iomfinance/brochures/guidetotheeuropeansavingstaxdirectiv.pdf

and then ideally ensure that any journalist/presenter to whom you are speaking is fully aware of the tax treatment of deposits in the Isle of Man, particularly for UK residents.

Long gone are the days when any offshore account, directly held, led to deferred income tax liabilities (other than by pure tax evasion) and the european savings directive put even straightforward tax evasion on the back foot.

Hope this is helpful to you all

IMJ - financial advisor


Channel 4 Tax Dodgers

  • srcoates
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:16

My e-mail sent a few minutes ago

Dear Mr Snow,

Many thanks to you and your colleagues, for airing our story of the plight of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander IOM depositors.

Your mention of ‘Offshore Banking’ as being for money launderers and tax dodgers (not an accurate transcription of your words) causes me great dismay.

It does so for the reasons that the largest section (60%) of the banks depositors are UK citizens for reasons of their domicile away from the UK and are unable to hold mainland bank accounts (money laundering regulations). The next largest section (25%), are like me UK citizens domiciled in the UK and importantly paying tax on our deposits to the UK Government (just as Ziggy does). With other categories the total of UK citizens amounts to around 90%. Added to this that the Island is signatory to European agreement for financial institutions to report depositor details of interest earned to the source (of the funds) countries taxation authorities, you can now appreciate the tag is wholly unjustified.

For me the reason for the IOM deposit was, that for my Inland Revenue approved Self Administered Pension Plan (different to a SIP) to gain a rate of interest that matched or beat inflation it was necessary to go offshore as the mainland rates are plain laughable. I was being prudent with my funds by depositing them as opposed to riskily investing them.

I sold my company on June 30th this year having calculated I would have sufficient to live on---the subsequent loss of £280k as a consequence of the questionable actions of the FSA (see attached press release) and inadvertent consequences of the British Government in achieving, in our case, the exact opposite of the intended UK taxpayer protection.

I do hope that you will not let this story drop and that you could perhaps report on today’s meeting of Treasury, Isle of Man & both Financial Services agencies, reversing if possible the unfortunate impression that we are tax dodgers etc.

Thank you for your time

Attached todays Press Release


My email to Jon

  • Mekong
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:10

Hi Jon,

First off as a Depositor with KSF IoM I pass on my heart felt appreciation for yourself and your team takng up our cause and bringing out plight to the attention of the general public. but ....

... this is a major but ,,,

Why are we still being portraid as fat cat tax dodgers, this perception given to the majority of your viewers really hurts our cause.

May I take a liberty and request that you and your team investigate UK banking laws with respect to UK Citizens / non-UK Residents (expats) and our restrictions in holding a Sterling Account amd tell our storey. the restrictions in place to open a KSF account are probably the most strict in the global banking system, and in my case since a lot of my contracts were executed in the Middle East and hence my remitance came from the same I had to get my contracts validated by the local UK Diplomatic mission in order for the funds to be accepted into the system.

Please give us fair representation

Best Regards
XXXX X. XXXXXX
KSF IoM Depositor
Bangkok Thailand


why are we forced offshore?

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:48

Mekong, agree about the tax haven perception problem and I do think that the question of why a large percentage of us have been forced to bank offshore by virtue of our non UK-resident status, should be more fully emphasised to, and explored by, the media...Why is it that we are denied UK bank accounts? Is the UK public aware of this?
On a practical note I'm wondering, when the day comes that I might receive a sterling cheque from IOM, where am I going to deposit it since I no longer have a sterling currrent account...that was in KSFIOM. Have I no option but to open another offshore account??


Tax Dodgers

  • vikkinkit
  • 15/10/08 30/11/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:38

Apologies if I have missed it, but has anyone referred to the EU Withholding Tax? Perhaps we should explain that we either have to declare interest to HMG and pay tax on it in UK, or opt to pay EU Withholding Tax. Then (possibly) critics who label us 'Tax Dodgers' might be helped to understand.


Jon Snow

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:54

One point here... Jon Snow may have made those comments, but he is not stupid, and as a presenter interviewing two people of opposite sides, has to play the devil's advocate a bit and was only stating what many of the british public believe - and probably did so in order to give Ziggy an opportunity to counter those arguments.

By all means write to him, but please be nice. Jon Snow and Channel 4 News were one of the few media organisations to cover our story from the very start, and overrall have done really excellent work.
I'm just saying - Jon Snow is not the enemy here, and Channel 4's coverage has helped us greatly.


Jon Snow

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:11

I understand where you're coming from but I do think he could have phrased the question a little more subtley rather than saying "You know as well as I do........." That's hardly being impartial is it?
Nevertheless we don't want to alienate him in any way do we?


Agree completely ... a good

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:56

Agree completely ... a good point from my favourite Duty Adult from moneysavingexpert!


Tax Dodger?

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:54

I suggest it's a lost cause. The fact that off-shore banks pay interest gross will inevitably attract cheap comments from the Media and the ignorant public.

Just make sure you use the correct terminology [depositor or saver, instead of "investor"] and make sure you point out where you pay the appropriate tax.

Then have the fun I've just had stopping the Jersey Tax Authorities taxing me twice on some of my income because they can't even read my Tax Return properly ... how an OCR-capable Return gets turned into a sheet of manuscript calculations on a photocopied proforma is beyond me, especially when the data isn't transferred correctly.


UK banks will pay interest

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:43

UK banks will pay interest gross on submission of an IR80 (is that the right one?) takes two seconds to fill in and anyone can do it. The difference being that a non-resident who can prove true overseas abode is not required to have witholding tax witheld as per European Tax directives, but there is no guarantee that the IR in the UK is not aware, and there may well be taxation issues upon return to UK.

I should add that all the UK accounts that I hold are registered gross of tax, because I account for taxable income earned in the UK, in a different manner than I do for income earned outside of the UK. It's a paper exercise, not a tax avoidance exercise.


Tax Dodger?????

  • lorraine
  • 14/10/08 14/07/10
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:34

I opened two other accounts in IOM for dollar deposits with Bradford and Bingley and Citibank in order to keep my deposits below the safety threshold (some joke) and both the other other accounts tax at source (it's called retention tax) so I assumed Kaupthing would do this too. If I'm paying tax how can I be avoiding it?


Provide adequate proof of

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:45

Provide adequate proof of overseas residence, and that letter you should have from the UK tax office informing you of no further need to submit a UK tax return for income under your free pay allowance in the UK.


tax dodgers?

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:14

"Tax dodgers" with deposits in Kaupthing IoM are screwed anyway because HMRC will have transparency of all depositors, won't they?

What we're fighting for is the return of monies confiscated by the UK government that UK citizens (and for that matter, non-UK citizens)have put into an offshore bank for totally legitimate reasons, no?


Dear Mr Snow, I feel you

  • The Biggest Ban...
  • 10/10/08 14/07/15
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:49

Dear Mr Snow,

I feel you should know that the comments you made during your program last night caused myself and my family considerable distress.

Suggesting that private individuals who have invested in the IOM might have only done so to avoid UK income tax was unfair, unjustified and inaccurate reporting.

My families life savings were deposited on the island on the advice of an independent, professional, fully UK regulated Independent Financial Advisor, who advised me that this was a "perfectly safe place to entrust your life savings with things being so very unstable here in Britain"

This had nothing whatsoever to do with any attempt to in any way avoid UK income tax. I am British by birth, UK resident and a full UK tax payer.

It would be very much appreciated if you might correct this misassumption on tonight's bulletin. Thousands of quite ordinary, hard working, tax paying British citizens have had their life savings taken from them in what amounts to little more than a bank raid by the UK government, whom we firmly believe are now doing their best to have the matter 'swept under the carpet'.

I would appeal to you Mr Snow to please help these ordinary, hard working, tax paying British citizens like myself recover from this dreadful situation, without in any way assisting the UK Government to get away with what will probably become known as the 'crime of the century'.

Regards and many thanks


dodgy subject...

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:42

Dave
I think it would be extremely difficult for the public to dissasociate 'Tax Dodger' from 'expat', 'Isle of Man', 'tax haven' etc; these words are tied to a long-standing misconception. Even if joe public was to read the following article they wouldn't automatically disassociate (IMHO).
Maybe best to avoid taking the bait, just transcend it - or may be some form of humour might diffuse it - any comedians with good retaliations for our front page guys to have to hand?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/where-is-a-tax-dodger-to-stash-his-...
IceCrusher


re - dodgy subject

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 16:35

I personally think that both Jon Snow and John Mcfall did far more for our cause last night than against - Ziggy put the points across clear & concise - in answer to the questions John McFall virtually agreed to every point, Ok so we had to take a hit with tax dodgers money laundering - but all that was said on that was the public perception and of course they generalised for all off- shore institutions thus including IoM / Jersey / Guernsey with other more secretive banking structures where no questions can be asked by any government and no details of accounts are released. Lets face it without that one comment you would thought the Treasury Select Committee was on our side.

That is the next objective "to get the regulated transparent off shore banking separated from the closed doors & silence of other countries"

So please come on we can't expect every media report to be 100% in our favour, but what we can do is educate not ridicule any critics, after all everyone knows & accepts now that some are forced to bank off-shore, that's in only 10 days (less if you consider it was 3 days before the first interviews on TV).


Tax Dodger

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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:08

I completely understand where you are coming from that's why I concentrated on island residents and charities.
At the end of my piece I then included the situation regarding the people outside the British Isles who are unable to open UK accounts. Whether he (Jon Snow) understands or not I just could not sit here and let the comments go. He has a very powerful platform to speak from and he should know better than to use it to put forward his misleading and biased views. I really do know people on this island who are suicidal.

We all need a rant every now and then, Jon snow got mine.
That's mine over with, for now


rave on...

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:16

Dave
If I gave the idea that I doubted your 'rave' was useful I'm sorry cos I was just moving on to how we deal with this issue in the future. I'm glad you told him where its at!!

IceCrusher


from the real Rave On

  • Rave On
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:28

My mail just sent to Mr Snow

Dear Sir

How utterly hurtful to read the comments made by yourself re KSFIOM depositors.

I am a 62yr old female pensioner still working as I have all my life

I am a uk resident and as such I entrusted my life savings in the hands of the

Derbyshire Building Society 11 months ago.

I and 8000 + others now find ourselves in a terrible situation.

We do not need comments such as this , in fact we need as much support as is

possible to muster.

We welcome your thoughts on how you would approach the same if, through no fault

of your own, your life savings disappeared before your very eyes.

If you wish to champion a worthy cause please let me speak for us all on your

programme.

many kind regards


Crass again in two

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:32

Crass again in two consecutive posts.
You didn't tell him what he did wrong.
I don't want him to "champion" a worthy cause, I want him to report concisely and without bias.


You Are Crass Sir

  • Mekong
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:40

Jeez

People are trying

If you are so good send your comments to the people that can have an influence rather than being a biggotted asshole in this forum! All you have ever said is insults to people trying to assist.

I allways call a spade a spade and as such you are a useless Cunt!


And I have read you comments

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 16:09

And I have read you comments getting down to basic insults against one of the FSC [?] I'd suggest that you attempt to compose emails that get your point across without telling someone they "couldn't organize a piss up" - it is possible to converse without getting down to Bangkok bar talk - though if you wish to do just that, feel free to PM me, and I'll oblige.


Wrong, the email is without

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 16:04

Wrong, the email is without shape or form, and Snow did no wrong apart from putting up a point of view held by many people in the UK.
Unfortunately it would seem that you have been propping up too many bars in NEP and have become rather fond of barrack room law and views.

I think there is nothing to be gained sending an email to Snow who did a pretty reasonable job of making a news story.

We are getting to the point as mentioned here where too much email and correspondance without form will damage the cause.

I'd also suggest you keep a civil tongue in your head.


Mekong

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 16:00

Steady The Buffs, don't lose it man.


Pompous git

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:58

Hear hear... Pompous git is what I called him yesterday. I have no desire to read any of his pompous pontifications but I can't seem to get away from them they're everywhere!


john snows email

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:02

What is Jon snows email please?


Jo Snow

  • 208
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:07

Sorry missed that bit off snowmail(?)channel4 [dot] com


channel 4 news

  • steve
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:58

Well done to all those involved in getting such long airplay on last nights Channel 4 news. I think we should keep up the momemtum by all of us emailing jon snow with our own stories - there are after all so many facets to this sorry mess which were not covered last night (Derbyshire Building Society for one) As least after todays adjournment, it ain't "game over" yet!


story re-writes with pics

  • broke1
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 14:45

How about writing - re-writing our individual stories, but angled towards dispelling some of this tax-dodging assumption? Then picking up on someone's suggesting earlier that we should visualize ourselves, post our stories in the stories window of the website with pics, and invite the media to look.

I've been fighting off publicizing myself - takes careful writing - but I did send a three page piece out there, which happened to also clarify that I was NOT a tax-dodger. Was asked for pics, but was then told that the paper's photographer would have to take them, and they weren't too interested in traveling 5000 miles for them! However, rather like journalists logging into a net-based media site archive for info, how about setting up a facility on here whereby they can come to us.

This I all 'soft' stuff, maybe, compared to the very concerted efforts that have brought us good news today in the form of this postponement. But tricky now, to know how those of us stuck in distant locations can also continue to contribute.

Again, just a thought, and maybe a silly one!


Channel 4 dominoes

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 24/10/2008 - 15:27

And may I suggest any computer generated graphics depicting dominoes has the dominoes falling in the correct direction, unlike those broadcast on Ch4 with Jon Snow last night.

The "collapse" of Kaupthing IoM did not result in Iceland's banks "collapsing".