REJECTION OF CLAIM

If the KHF claim is invalid?
We may be better off pursuing the directors and their insurers - and/or their lawyers and their insurers - for failing to advise the bank there was no valid guarantee in place.
Had Docherty et al known this they would not have been permitted to put KSFIOM's money in the Kaupthing Group and we wouldn't have ended up with it all in KSFUK - since presumably the FSC would not have allowed it.
This might give a claim for all our shortfall whereas a mere claim for pennies in KHF's liquidation might be worth next to nowt if upheld.

Couldn't agree more !!!

It doesn't matter what you do. It isn't going to change their game plan!

It doesn't matter how I present myself, if I was the angel Gabriel it wouldn't change things.

You thought being 'nice' would work. Detail would work. Changing sides would work.

I don't have any questions about how I present myself. Before this crisis hit us, when it hit us, and up until this point I personally have been working on a project that I placed above this. I have paid the price. But I don't care, if I am successful in my plan it will be a significant irritation remembering what I lost in Kaupthing but I'm not dead.. And I'm wiser. I understand what happened. That doesn't mean I'm not angry, want to see things changed etc etc.

I'll give the link again so you might tell me what you make of it:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/01/25/133331/the-bank-problem-in-a-...

In a conversation with an American friend here I mentioned it in response to a question, I sent it to him later and this was the response I got back from him:
"The graph was grreat!!! They gained a level of profit equal to the increase in the US debt!"

What do you think the banks were doing in the UK? The same?
What do you think the IoM was doing? Riding on their coattails?

If you look at the figures involved you notice just how immense they are.

It is an historical moment. I'm not King Canute. I backed DST ages ago because I realised that being accurate and honest was the only chance we had, trying to use pillow talk with Bell wasn't going to work.

The IoM took part in the great rip-off. And then they with the rest of the pirates didn't want to even pay to keep a reputation. There are a lot of people that don't want to give up ill-gotten gains... they gamed successfully.. screw you.

Now who was right? And your parents might even have been correct. Do you watch the bigger debate or do you just watch your corner? It is so complex. No, not really, I always thought the gini coefficient was the best indicator of problems to come.

Sanctity of contract? Well yes. The behaviour of the IoM, pathetic.

A detailed debate stemming from agreement on these points might bear fruit.

I am not suggesting that we roll over and die. I'm suggesting we acknowledge the truth.

Now I suggest we debate the loan book.

I too would be interested in these figures. If you come across them please drop a line here. I am twitching to put up another video.

I don't think there is much we could have done in the circumstances.
The bankers, Iceland bankers, UK bankers, USA bankers, German bankers all screwed us.
They disabled the regulators, fooled the innocent politicians by buying the active, and ran rampant.
They managed to swing the media, they decided the terms of the debate.

Which leaves us where we are.

The directors of the KSFIoM were not of sufficient astuteness to protect our funds. I hope they read this, I would personally rip their heads off. And that is I challenge I am letting lie.
The FSC was frankly incompetent. We saw the ridiculous statements that proceeded from it after the debacle. "Not me!!" Is there any idiot here, including Mr Bell, that actually buys their intellectually flawed arguments. I can't even remember who the boss is, some idiot called Aspden?, but the guy is obviously a wanker. - this is for internal consumption. They handled the crisis abysmally. Do these people not have telephones? Can they use them? Apparently not.

Bell did his job.

We argued. the 50K divide introduced by the IoMG to protect its home constituency destroying a rational unity because the flock were running so scared. And that fear was fanned by the IoMG (and the banks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

If you had bothered to read my postings you would have seen that I hid nothing. I very clearly and frankly, embarassingly, admitted to my mistakes. I've played this game before, which you rather arrogantly ignore. I don't go down (al reves) like Bill Clinton. If I'm fighting I work on being blemish free.

What the fuck do we do now is the question!!!!

I suggest we concentrate on Bell's testimony and work forward.

I am not about to give a more detailed analysis on line. If people can't get the big picture by now then God save us..... and it looks like that. If anybody wants serious references to the polemic then by all means email me.

My patience was exhausted ages ago.

I suggest you track up the entries in this forum and locate my posting to frog. And you look at the link to ftalphaville re Reid.Deustche-Bank.

The local cowboys in the IoM are a pathetic opportunistic shambles. They know this, well Gelling et al probably have an intellectually deficient pseudo defence intact in their pathetic minds.

Give me access and I'll destroy them. But the access is mediated through the IoM judiciary, and I am not going to say on line the disgust I have for it.

As for the Russian Mafia, I have worked in bandit country. If you read my postings you would have seen this.

Now for once let us concentrate on ripping the pathetic defences of the bandits apart!

This is not a laughing matter and may well reduce the KSFIOM returns from KSFUK.
Do not forget that burglars have successfully sued householders when they fell through the roof of a house they were in the process of burgling.
The Tchenguiz brothers have serious wealth and have, over the years, bought substantial political influence.
They are also members of the world's most powerful clan.
This is obviously part of their plan to renege on their debts to KSFUK.
One can only hope that the UK courts will show their independence but recent history does not bode well.

For information I have been in touch with the journalist and recieved this reply:

Yes, a sorry saga, I hope my article will be publsihed in the Weekly Telegraph on February 10. Space precludes going into details but I make the point that a substantial minority of savers were not fully compensated by the Manx Depositors Compensation scheme, Mike Goodman.

This what I sent him:
For the Attention of Michael Lawrence Goodman.
Sir
I am a member of the Partially Protected Depositrs Group of KSF IOM DAG, I understand you are doing an article on the current situation and offer these comments.

Fifteen months have passed since the demise of KSF IoM, during that time about 70% of depositors have been covered by the DCS, the remaining 30% have a far longer wait. Those 30% (an approximate figure) cover around 70% of the deposits held in KSF, these are Partially Protected Depositors, people with sums far greater in many cases than the £50,000 compensation limit. For them the wait is a drip feed as assets are sold off until possibly 2017. To date the recovery for these people has been 40% of their original deposit, whereas the majority, represented by those with less than £50,000 at stake have either been catered for or are being catered for by the DCS.

The great iniquity here is that some of those waiting have the proceeds of house sales involved, meaning that they are now unable to buy a home. Some have had the working capital of businesses taken away; for others it is their pension that they have been deprived of. To date one person has committed suicide; others have suffered health and stress related illness and yet others have been the victims of marriage breakdowns.

Of the many actions taken on behalf of depositors MPs such as Ed Vaizey, Stephen Hammond, Mark Hoban and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown have supported the call for an Inquiry. The negative response given by Treasury Minister Ian Pearson, is no great surprise given his antipathy towards to offshore banking in general and to the victims of this regulatory failure in particular. The Conservative Party have been asked if they would support an Inquiry should they form the next government, to date no response has been given.

Others have supported Early Day Motion 474 which also calls for an enquiry into the conduct of the regulators.

What has emerged over the fifteen months is that The Financial Services Authority did little if anything to prevent Kaupthing from setting up further British retail operations eight months before it failed, because it thought taking personal deposits would help boost the bank’s faltering liquidity. The same appears to be true of Landbanki’s Icesave. It is clear that the FSA was concerned with KSF’s liquidity as far back as December 2007. A strategy that appears to have clearly begun in Iceland as the Icelandic economy faltered, the hedge funds hovered and the banks futures looked very rocky indeed.

One would have thought that Financial regulators are in existence to protect the depositors in opaque financial institutions such as banks, from the danger, the greed and folly of those institutions exposes them to. In this case, however, it seems that the regulator sought to protect the financial institutions from the consequences of their own folly, by using depositors as a financial shield of last resort.
Meanwhile, the money raised was lent out with impunity. Large sums being channelled into vainglorious acquisition sprees with Icelandic entrepreneurs taking sizeable chunks of the British High Streets and all under the watching gaze of the FSA.

In Britain, regulators were complacent or incompetent depending on your sense of justice, doing nothing to curb the ambitions of banks over whom they say they had no supervisory power. An arguable point in my view given that HM Treasury’s web site on Octiober 8th 2008, made it clear that Kaupthing was under its supervision. They saw the Icelandic Government guarantee and wantonly failed to look beyond it. They failed to see that it was built on sand and that the banks’ liabilities were the equivalent of ten times Iceland’s annual GDP.

This goes beyond stupid or disappointing, and indeed beyond dumb complicity, but puts the FSA into the realms of accessories before the fact. The depositors were used as collateral damage. The ill judged expansion of Icelandic banks under David Oddssen's premiership ,was backed and supported by the Icelandic government and yet we now have the Kaupthing Resolution Committee rejecting KSF IoM claims, on the tenuous basis that the signature on the Parental Guarantee was that of a non-authorised Director. Something that didn’t stop Kaupthing from using that Parental Guarantee to project it’s products. This matter will be tested in court by PWC.

The conduct of the British arm OF Kaupthing is now the subject of a formal investigation by the Serious Fraud Office and MEP Eva Joly. Tony Shearer, a former chief executive of Singer & Friedlander before it was taken over by Kaupthing in 2005, has written to FSA chairman Lord Turner requesting a public inquiry. Mr Shearer was recently reported in the Sunday Telegraph as saying: "For the sake of everybody who lost money, we need to know exactly what happened between the takeover and its collapse. The FSA is partly culpable because this all happened on its watch." I and many others can only concur with that view. Shearer had previously expressed concern as to the suitability of Kaupthing to take of what was Singer and Friedlander to the FSA and was ignored.

The decision taken to place over 50% of KSFIoM’s assets with KSFUK, against recognised European practice which dictates that a maximum of 25% of a bank’s assets should be held in one place, was the final blow to KSF Isle of Man. Both the Isle of Man’s financial regulator, the Financial Supervision Commission (‘FSC’), and the FSA had full knowledge of this course of action and the proportion of assets to be transferred, which is why we, KSFIoM’s depositors and bondholders, believe there is clear evidence of regulatory negligence as well as a poor reflection on the Directors of KSF IoM.

The FSA refutes the FSC’s claims that they consulted extensively with the FSC prior to the transfer of assets to KSFUK in order to meet with the FSC’s requirement – the removal of direct exposure to the Icelandic parent company, Kaupthing hf. And yet the FSA refuse to issue any documentation that could confirm or deny that.

Written evidence provided to the Isle of Man’s Tynwald Select Committee suggests that the FSC’s initial objective was to ensure KSFIOM assets were not exposed to the potential failings of the Group as a whole and not just to the Icelandic Parent, Kaupthing hf, as later claimed by the regulators at both the UK’s Treasury Select Committee and Tynwald Select Committee hearings.

The IoMG and the FSC have both stated that the FSA did not warn them of the concerns they had for KSFUK’s financial health - despite over 50% of KSFIOM assets being held with the UK subsidiary; why is that?

The FSA have claimed that as a fellow host regulator and despite the IoM being a Crown Dependency, it was not their job to liaise with the FSC in relation to the bank’s deteriorating position but the home regulator’s – Iceland’s FME; and yet the bank was on UK soil and EU guidelines make it clear that local regulators must make sure that banks conform to the local standards. Quite obviously the FSA did not do that.

As depositors the PPDG is still calling for an Inquiry into this collpase and the role of the regulators in general and the directors of the Kauthing Group.

Regards

Also if anyone is interested there is now a Facebook page for the Guernsey Landsbanki depositors.

From The Sunday Times January 24, 2010

Celebrity loan book for sale : Kate Walsh

Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (KSF), the British division of Kaupthing, the Icelandic bank that collapsed in 2008, lent hundreds of millions to businessmen including Robert Tchenguiz, the entrepreneur, the property developers Nick and Christian Candy, and Kevin Stanford, the retailer.

What is left of the bank’s operations — three loan books valued at £2 billion — has been put up for sale by Ernst & Young, the administrator.

A total of £1.2 billion was lent to individuals. Some £300m went to fund the purchase of yachts and aircraft and nearly a third of the loans went on UK property. Many were advanced on little or no collateral and about a quarter of the loans in the £824m corporate lending book are believed to have turned sour.

Apollo Real Estate Advisers and Blackstone are thought to have looked over the property portfolio when it was originally put on the market in November 2008, a month after KSF went into administration, but the sale was shelved.

Gavin Jordan of Ernst & Young, which is handling the sale, said in a letter to potential purchasers last week: “We believe that market conditions may have changed sufficiently since we last tested the appetite that an acquisition of KSF may now be to the benefit of creditors.”

Come inside dear boy, have a cigar, we're going to go far.

Does it sound familiar?

Yes PWC weren't in at the outset. Do you understand what 'security' do? PWC are 'security'. I'm trying to find an analogy you can relate to. They just say 'Yes" on cue, and charge x%. That is in their audit capacity. In their consultancy capacity they just take x and multiply it by the coefficient of stupidity of their clients over 1.
Liquidation, well they see the excess demand at present and can't stop jerking off.

You haven't been here before have you frog?

With relation to the title I lived in Cambridge for a while and visited a couple of residences on the Thames.

Frog, start talking to people!

I'm sure MS is a lovely guy, but I bet the most important thing in his life.. apart form his wife's credit card bill, is the bank remittance from PWC at the end of the month.

You make nice capos.....

The media is the massage that counts.. the firm handshake and the easy smile.... and you thought it was just a song

Not now John,,
Bugger all that we've got to get on with these so fuck all that.... rpt
Got to compete with the wily Japanese
...
Gotta get on with the show.

There is some serious pertinent detail in this thread. I'm sorry to have sliced through it a little. But let us not

make it a personal domain. It affects everybody. So let's involve everybody.

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you seen the silver raven?? I don't think it is flying over the IoM.

Know your enemy. Again, if you don't understand my comments, just ask.

The question is how do you bring these guys to book? They are guilty!

If you think PWC are rather 'nice guys' you need your head examined.

Yes they are doing their job. But you need to understand their 'code'.
Their code is 'let's screw the punters', let's keep our major clients/constituency sweet next, and then, and only then let's operate for the benefit of those who we nominally operate for in this particular situation.

You think that PWC didn't notice this:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/01/25/133331/the-bank-problem-in-a-...

You think that PWC have any interest in the 90% of the population that operate outside of their sector?

Give me a break. I remember a comment about MS's wife, it seemed to say a lot about MS. And PWC UK's actions also seem to me to have said a lot about their opinion of MS's competence.

And now we have this rejection of KSFIoM's 'guarantee'. And how were the last minute doubts of PWC IoM communicated? With the normal pathetic, insensitive, and negligent capability that marks out MS.
Why doesn't the bastard just commit suicide? Because bastards like MS don't. You have to stamp on them.
And I remember your sessions with the rat.

As I said before I dealt with the bastards before. If you are like them then God help you.

They appear to be in the pocket of the IoM establishment. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work this out. It just takes someone with mediocre intelligence to notice.

I guess you were aware of the seventies.... musico?. Well what did they say?

We are about to get a double dip. Foreign currency holders fucked again. Hooray. MS couldn't even hedge, respond, apparently act appropriately. MS is a time-serving mediocre plonker. Get up to speed.

Totally agree frog, its the Kaupthing Resolution Committee that has rejected the claims, be they PWC or individuals. Those are the facts and the facts are all that matter, over emotive statetments get us nowhere.

I would suggest that it was also predictable given the Icelandic attitudes towards external debt. It is also evident that these claims will be pursued by the courts.