Phone lines are open

  • two time loser
  • 10/10/08 21/06/09
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Posted: Tue, 14/10/2008 - 22:05

Spoke to Pricewaterhousecooper's in IOM today, Louise Harding email:l.harding@iom.pwc.com She told me that KSF IOM phone lines are now back on tel: + 44 1624 699222. By hanging on for ages it was finally answered by a very helpful lady. I opened the conversation by saying I was not going to shout at her which broke the ice! On the question of funds in transit i.e., in my case one of my 3 transactions had been sent, she said the funds were in the system but had been frozen and would either end up in the bank account to which I made the transfer or returned to KSF IOM but in either event they were not lost. I know which alternative I'd prefer! She said RBS had frozen the account. The bank was not broke, it had healthy assets and there was quite a bit of interest in it. I am asking my receiving bank, Natwest to try to trace the transfer. It seems to me there are many transfers in limbo like mine. Can anyone out there advise on who we can approach to unfreeze our money? In my case it is a substantial amount waiting to complete a property deal and I need it urgently.

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Phone lines open

  • Julienne
  • 16/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:31

I keep trying the phone number and so far have only been asked to leave a message, I have not been able to speak to a real person - I have sent details to their e-mail :- branch(?)kaupthing [dot] com which I was told by Louise at PWC would take 3 days to obtain a reply. ....We wait ... holding our breath to find out if a transfer went through and is frozen or whether it is still showing on our account at Kaupthing.


Transfers

  • codhelpus
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 04:08

Can someone quickly explain why it is a problem informing simpson of your transfers. I have just posted a letter to tell him of the 2 I made at 12.30am early on Wedneday morning? Is he against us? Will he try to claw it back for creditors? If I m lukcy I can wait ourside the post box and ask the postman to return my letter in a few hours time. I cant sleep - please someone help. Also does anyone know the likelyhood of us being successful if we made a Chaps transfer for 80,000 and a BACS for 10,000 on Tuesdaynight Wednesday morning between about 12.30 - 1pm - we were in France so 1 hour ahead of UK.

the transcactions only ever showed pending and not actioned - does this mean it s hopeless? and that IOM never actioned it. It did show that both had been debited from the account with the new account balance. I have been basing all my hopes on this. and have been reading threads and am terrified I ve missed the boat.

Help - Hopper anyone - can you give advice.


Conversation with staff at KSF IOM

  • Done like a Kipper
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:37

I have just had a chat with a member of staff at KSF IOM (the same person who was dealing with our CHAPS payment early last week........... which didn't materialise). Here is a precis of what I was told:
That as from 6 October KSF IOM encountered difficulty with CHAPS/BACS payments and this was caused by the UK. Seems that its UK correspondent bank was not clearing payments.
A large portion of funds from KSF IOM is currently frozen in the UK. This diminishes the attractiveness for a potential takeover as the funds are frozen and need to be liquidated asap.
There has been some progress with the Icelandic government.


Conversation with staff at KSF IOM

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 09:56

Just managed to get through (fairly easily) to James at KSF IoM. Re CHAPS initiated online about 2p.m. on 7/10/08, therefore dated 8/10/08. He took my account number and detail of amount (£60k). He said he'd trace it and phone me. Yes! He did take my phone number. I'll post here when/if I hear anything.
I do feel we need to be patient while at the same time reminding the media that we're still here.


As before

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:41

We are back to the liquidator needing to be very strong about undoing transactions that were made to the detriment of the company. He has the power to create a lot of grief should he so wish.


we dont want the money in the KSFIOM

  • jenren
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:26

but surely if a SWIFT transfer was made well before the bank went under then it would be ilegal to 'claw it back'????? We dont want our life savings 'clawed back' to pay off debts. Sorry if it was detremental to the company but our interests were with our future. If the bank was going bankrupt people are hardly going to want to leave money in for the good of the banks future. I am more than happy to try and help the cause if we are lucky enough to get our money but we can not face loosing everything.


No, these transfers aren't

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:33

No, these transfers aren't instant, thus if it actually happened after the pop time then they can get it back.

The official receiver can reverse the sale of a house as can any other BoT administrator if they believe and estate has suffered a detriment because of the sale.

It's the way it is, I could have written a cheque dated before the freeze, it could have hit the bank, but if it was given clearance, not just "fate" as t is known, then it would be refused payment, even express cleared cheques are in the same condition.
The ultimate power of the receiver is very high, he is difficult to challenge in court, and almost impossible to get decisions reversed, only points regarding his appointment can be challenged, not necessarily his actions.


Instant?

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:40

The transfer doesn't happen at the same time as the electronic message goes through - so not instant in that regard.

However, the actual transfer of funds between accounts at the settlement bank (Bank of England in the case of the UK) is instant.

RBS handled the BoE settlements for KSF. There is a small possibility that they may have made transfers after KSF UK went into administration (there'd probably have been a slight delay in letting RBS know to freeze the KSF account), in which case the administrator would have a claim over that money.


FSC advice

  • Toast8
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 07:56

is to inform PWC as a priority if you have any frozen transfers. I did that last week and am now not entirely sure if this was the right thing. Although they indicated that they were looking at "unfreezing" the transfers if this simply means claw back to the IOM as opposed to allowing continuing to beneficiary bank I may have shot myself in the foot by providing information enabling them to trace the funds. Having said that it still sounds like knitting mist untangling all those transactions.


FSC Advice

  • Andy Ish
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:28

Toast8 I would not worry too much about this. They know or will know. Its not hard to check the system on any transfers that took place from the 1st of October and ask for confirmation of the status from Kaupthing UK and RBS. But there is a legal system, its not really that loose. If money left Kaupthing UK to RBS then you should get it. If it did not then they are allowed to call it back and look at it from a legal point of view. PWC is a reputable organisation and know the latter of the law on this. I am certain of that!


transfers

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:14

exactly - i did not inform simpson of my transfers because he is after them to pay creditors - instead i asked him to clarify his position in relation to transfers and i received no reply.


I dont understand

  • chipmunk
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 07:54

phone lines are open and staff are working? How does a company in administration ( Or prelim Liquidation) actually operate. Surely this means that they are taking payments on loans etc .....why would one pay into a defunct company if there is the slightest chance of it winding up....how does the company (Bank) operate as its no longer a bank and has no license to operate as a bank....am I missing something ?


I do not understand

  • Andy Ish
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:22

Because people are paying their instalments on money they owe in hope that the bank does not ask for the whole loan back. In the current market climate, this could be disastrous. Can you imagine if you had a 95% mortgage on a property that the price of has dropped 35%? No one will lend you the principal value of the loan. Then you are repossessed to pay the bank on demand!


Sorry to say

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:29

But it is better if they are repo'ed, at least we get a lump of money, albeit it of a distressed sale, better than waiting for 25 years of interest payments.
In fact we should be pushing for immediate possession proceedings to be put in place for any loan which goes a day over due date and where there is significant chance of reclaiming personal assets, not only that, interest is due on any shortfall, and I don't see someone with a £2 million mortgage fancying bankruptcy, which is an option for some of us at the moment.
Let's stop peeing about here, I'm tired of worrying about anyone else's feelings or if someone else loses out because another bank goes pop - if that is what it takes for HMG to take notice and sort some of this mess out, which is well within their power and budget, the so be it.


Sorry to say

  • Andy Ish
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 16:03

Captain not really
A mortgage loan is an asset on banks financial books. Additionally the price drop is not perminant. Prices will go up in 3, 5 or 10 years it will go up at least to catch up with inflation and this where its an asset and not a debt. this means another bank would be interested to buy that mortgage. But if it is reposessed then you have nothing to sell on! Remember also interest rates are bound to go up based on the risk. At least as an implication of Basel II


because...

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:00

If you don't continue to pay the loans, then there is every chance of immediate forclosure, effectively all those assets ultimately belong to us as creditors.
The other choice will be to find alternative finance directly.
It's important to realise that those debts are actually assets of KSF IOM, where we as creditors are a liability to any potential buyer.


So IOM Kaopthing continue in

  • chipmunk
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:03

So IOM Kaopthing continue in business without a license and under prelim liquidation....?


would you prefer

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:09

That they don't continue to collect OUR money?
I expect that the admin will insist that mortgages etc are placed elsewhere, which should be interesting with valuations being under advance values.


PWC

  • Olivia 93
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:11

I too spoke to a lady named Shorona who whilst not being able to give me any immediate advice did reassure me that they would get back to me 'in a few days' with some idea of where my 'lost in transit' money is


Frozen money

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:04

If it is in RBS it will almost certainly still be in KSF UK's account with them (they transfer money through RBS), which got frozen on Wednesday 8th when KSF UK went into administration.

It will most likely get taken up into the UK administration process, which unfortunately means you'll be unlikely to get hold of it soon.

You could try approaching either or both of RBS or the UK administrators of KSF (Maggie Mills, Tom Burton, Alan Bloom and Patrick Brazzill of Ernst & Young) who might be able to tell.


cold-dose I hope I get to say

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:26

cold-dose I hope I get to say personally one day


Frozen Money

  • Andy Ish
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:17

I hate to point this out but I uderstand that Kaupthing in the UK is back online and people can actually draw money since its been taken over by ING. Not sure why we keep referring to it as frozen! Does anyone actually know or is this an assumption?


KSF UK isn't "back online" as

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 09:56

KSF UK isn't "back online" as far as I know. Kaupthing Edge UK customers may be "back online" but that's because Kaupthing Edge UK business (NOT including rest of KSFUK) was transferred to ING bank and therefore not part of any restrictions. KSFUK remains in hands of administrators.


KSF UK vs Kaupthing Edge UK

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:22

They were separate divisions of the UK operation. The Kaupthing Edge internet bank is back in operation under ING.

People who had plain old KSF accounts in the UK still have those accounts frozen with no access. Gordon Brown has promised them a 100% guarantee.


Re: the money that may be in

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:22

Re: the money that may be in KSFUK's account at RBS. KSFUK may have had it at the time, or RBS, but presumably it couldn't be construed as "belonging" to them or forming part of their assets, they were merely couriers of it, and it was no longer an asset of KSFIOM, therefore is there not an argument that it does not fall under whatever administration/freezing of KSFUK at all, and should be returned to customers?
By the way, how about giving me your guesstimate of the likelihood we receive some sort of statement that we will be getting (virtually all) our money back in some shape or form, by the end of the week (statement that is, not the money)....
0-100%
Humour me...


Couriers?

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:33

Maybe, it depends exactly on how they were set up at that stage. Certainly transfers leaving RBS would have been distinct and tied to the CHAPS (or SWIFT) request, but at RBS it might just have been taken from a big general central pool account in the name of KFS.

BACS transfers are pooled together at all stages - in fact they offset the incoming BACS against the outgoing and only transfer the overall difference (cheaper to run). So for BACS there'll be real difficulty trying to claim it was a distinct chunk of cash that belonged to you.

I would have hoped that both KSF banks (IoM and UK) would be able to give a general indication of their balance sheets fairly quickly - they have to maintain that day-to-day. The news earlier today that KSF UK appears to be pretty much all funded is probably from that basis. This kind of information would be what a potential buyer would want as a starting point - the reassurance that the banks were basically solvent.

Doing proper pricing up of the assets and seeing about disposing of the longer-term ones for cash would take a bit longer. Again the indication from today's report was that there should be more detailed information on the liquidation payout by the end of November.

KSF(IOM) is very much dependent on getting KSF UK sorted out.


Is SWIFT more like BACS or

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:37

Is SWIFT more like BACS or CHAPS, in terms of being distinct and tied to the request?


swift/chaps

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:49

As I understand Swift is same terms as Chaps


SWIFT

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:53

SWIFT is generally more like CHAPS.

SWIFT is really just an international electronic message system. It's email (several banks actually do send their email to other banks via SWIFT). There's no fixed protocol for transferring the money, the banks make their own arrangements.

CHAPS and BACS are both UK systems, with the money clearing through the Bank of England. CHAPS is transferred in distinct chunks throughout the day - it requires the banks to do more work to manage the flow in and out of their settlement accounts (the Bank of England doesn't allow them to go overdrawn), but it protects them from getting left high-and-dry for large sums if a bank collapses. Hundreds of billions of pounds transfer through CHAPS every day, which could topple over the biggest of banks if it went wrong.

BACS is smaller amounts, so not as risky - and requires less work, so much cheaper to run. Cheque clearing is similar to BACS.

SWIFT is more likely to be like CHAPS because it would have some big sums involved. A system called Continuous Linked Settlement is often used for big international transactions.


Thanks cold-dose...........

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:57

Thanks cold-dose........... good explanation :-)


Wash account

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:55

Interesting. My receiving (or not receiving, I should say) bank tried to trace the SWIFT transfer and was unable to, but confirmed the money did not make it to their "wash account". Can we infer from that anything as to the location of it?


Wash account

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:23

Their wash account will be their central settlement account. The money would arrive there first, then be forwarded on to your account.

The same think happens with the outbound money - it goes from your individual account into a central account, and is then forwarded on - in the case of KSF through other banks as an interim step (e.g. KSF didn't have a Bank of England account, so themselves had an account at RBS to use for transferring money)

If the money had arrived in the receiving banks 'wash account' then - at least in the UK with CHAPS - the receiving bank is obliged to credit it into your account by the end of the banking day. So CHAPS transfers that have got beyond RBS should have been received by now.

If it was SWIFT, the presumably not UK or Europe - the destination currency would determine who KFS's correspondent bank was in that country. The money might be in a KFS account at the correspondent bank - or it might still be somewhere in KFS, either either London or Douglas.


Second wash

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:32

Your steady stream of insight is fascinating. Though I never imagined I would possibly want to know this much about banking systems.
KSFIOM said they used Deutsche Bank New York as their correspondent bank for US dollar transfers. Are you saying the money would go KSFIOM > KSFUK > (intermediary??) > Deutsche Bank NY... and could currently be sitting there?
In which case how and to whom would it go back to? Or would it remain there? What an incredible mess, I'm glad I'm not the liquidator having to unravel all this.
cold-dose - your patience is admirable.


Yep

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:27

The money is bound to be in either KSFUK or Deutsche Bank NY. Obviously the latter would be slightly more preferable.

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to ask the UK administrators and DB about it, although don't get your hopes up about getting your hands on it quickly.


Correspondent banks

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:29

UK - RBS/Natwest, London
(Isle of Man - HSBC, Douglas)
Eurozone - Deutsche Bank, Frankfurt
United States - Deutsche Bank, New York
Canada - Bank of Montreal, Montreal
Australia - NAB, Melbourne
Hong Kong - HSBC
Singapore - HSBC


COLD-DOSE just to clarify,

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 12:55

COLD-DOSE just to clarify, for those of us who have made CHAPS transfers on the 7th or earlier that have not reached designated bank, yet the on-line account showed as transferred and phone conversation with ksfiom verified that this morning - what is the next course of action? Do we notify PCW - presumably they will have all this informations soon anyway? Do we need to try and trace it's final destination ourselves?

sorry if this has already been asked


In-flight transfers

  • Sign
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 14:22

Chasing

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 13:16

There will be detailed records from CHAPS, and PwC will be able to see that the underlying transfer of the actual money didn't happen. They may not be able to tell that immediately, as that information might be in KSF UK or RBS... but it'll be there somewhere, and it'll all get sorted out by the administrators and the liquidator provisional.

That said, it wouldn't hurt to chase a bit.


cold-dose - thank you for

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 13:45

cold-dose - thank you for this. Yourself and Hopper are really working hard on this front.... maybe we'll all have to party in the 'Blue Lagoon' when this is all over with positive outcome for all!!


CHAPS/SWIFT

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:06

OCCAMS - FYI :
I transfered both GBP and USD from KSF IOM to RBS on Tues 07.10.08... all acknowledge online...
The GBP went by CHAPS - UK system
The USD went by SWIFT - the other system - assume because USD.

Both with value date 07.10.08

Needless to say nothing has arrived so I must assume all the funds are held in UK under the freeze order.


Phone call to KSF (IOM) today

  • JC1
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:41

Actually l mean yesterday now...... (not gone to bed yet!)
OCCAMS & Mikepapa........Sorry to inform you but I spoke to a young lady at KFS iom today, who confirmed my account balance has "somehow" reverted back to $600k (+), when infact, i have printouts and reference numbers for 2 x $300k withdrawls ( plus SWIFT/CHAPS fees) made on Tue & Wed last week, also a note of the exchange rate i agreed to convert at, and a printout of a reduced balance on my account that reflected these two transactions.
She claimed she had no record on her system of either transactions and could only suggest that i guard the print outs with my life and include them with my claim following the paperwork we are due to receive on 24th October!


I am guessing the transfers

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:49

I am guessing the transfers were bounced back to KSFIOM by one of the intermediary banks along the way due to KSFIOM's inability to actually transfer the funds to the destination after it stopped trading. It might not be shown as a new transfer back in, but instead as a cancellation of the original transfer, thus removing the record you had printed out from their system.
It would appear your $600k is now back safely with the least desirable subsidiary of the most unfortunate bank in the world..... (sorry, 4am humour, we're in the same boat)


I requested both transfers on

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 01:13

I requested both transfers on the 6th, same story. What I would say though, is whatever is acknowledged online isn't necessarily the date things happened. From what I understand, the online figures were not real-time and tied to the actual banking systems.


In-flight transfers

  • Sign
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 08:48

I also managed to speak to a helpful lady at KSF (IoM) this morning and queried the status of a couple of transfers that I processed via CHAPS last week, which have not reached my UK account. She told me that the transfer requested on 7 October had left my account, while the transfer requested on 9 October had not been processed and was still on my account.

She could not tell me whether in-flight transfers would continue to the receiving bank or be returned to KSF (IoM). In fact, nobody has been able to answer this simple question. I have already written to Mike Simpson, PwC Liquidator Provisional, but will follow-up to emphasise that the completion of the transfer would obviously be preferable.

I asked whether she could give me the CHAPS reference for my transfer (described as "Field 20"), as my receiving bank in the UK told me that this would be almost essential in helping to track down my payment. Unfortunately, as KSF (IoM) has had its banking license suspended, they are not allowed to access their internal systems, so she could not give me this reference. However, all queries are being passed to senior management, who should call me later on, and I have asked whether they could not be given "read-only" access to their systems in order to give customers this helpful information.

She also confirmed that the liquidator would be sending out letters with statements of account and claim forms.


online transfers

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 02:16

occams:

I have print out of my USD tranfer on 07.10.08 confirmed with Reference Number + Value date of 07.10.08 so I for one will hang onto it if the money has gone back to KSF- black hole - IOM :-)
sorry 0515 humour!


That KSFIOM + KSFUK are black

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 02:20

That KSFIOM + KSFUK are black holes.... is fact not humour :-)


BLACK HOLES

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 03:25

Occams you are indeed correct......

but then perhaps it was a bit of "black humour" ????
:-) :-)


Black and White Holes or What's in the Wash?

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 07:33

On 7-10-08 I decided to make a transfer of 60k. I wished to consult by phone and could not get through until after 12 noon. The lady I spoke to confirmed all was well with the bank in IoM and I could make the transfer online by CHAPS. I then made the transfer, ironically, in the process discovering that, due to waiting to contact by phone, I had missed the 12 noon deadline for same day transfer. So my black and white printout shows the date of transfer as 8-10-08.
Maybe inadvisedly, I left a balance of just under 50k on the island. Haven't a clue where any of it is now, so will probably have to borrow from RBS to cover end of month bills! Which is where my 60k should be sloshing about. Oh! And my shares in RBS have dramatically declined in value!
We seem to be condemned to live under the Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times".