Parental Guarantee

  • Done like a Kipper
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Thu, 30/10/2008 - 12:32

For Information - below is an email received today from the IOM FSC:

Dear XXXXXXX

Thank you for your e-mail of 26 October requesting a copy of the parental guarantee provided by Kaupthing Bank hf.

The copy of the guarantee that is held by the Financial Supervision Commission is restricted information obtained by the Commission in the discharge of its functions under the Financial Services Act 2008 (“the Act”). Schedule 5 of the Act prohibits disclosure of restricted information.

A copy of the Act is at: http://www.fsc.gov.im/lib/docs/fsc/CAROL/financialservicesact2008c8ra.pdf

Regards

Paul de Weerd

Senior Manager

Financial Supervision Commission

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Barrie I am not one that

  • Ally
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:06

Barrie

I am not one that wants to chase you off this board and sometimes in your long postings I have found the odd nugget to pursue further research on.

But please when you post, post fact. If you really did talk about this situation then surely you woud know the simple fact that Northern Rock's subsidiary is in Guernsey not Jersey

http://www.northernrock-guernsey.co.gg/


How do we pressure FSC

  • Bill
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 18:40

Should we all write to the FSC to put pressure on them on this issue - someone want to suggest wording of that request?


that is in hand, they have

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 18:43

that is in hand, they have been spoken to a number of times and formal questions are being edited now to be presented to them later. they are aware that we are on the case!!


Your call

  • Bill
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 20:37

Waiting to hear if I can help...........


If the FSC copy of the

  • expatvictim
  • 10/10/08 01/11/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 18:21

If the FSC copy of the guarantee was "obtained by the Commission in the discharge of its functions under the Financial Services Act 2008" Does this mean that they did not have a copy prior to June 17th 2008 when the act was signed in? or did the guarantee (terms) change after June 17th 2008?, (or am I reading too much into a process I dont fully understand)


Non disclosure of Parental Guarantee

  • carnel
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 14:26

We should hit them with the Freedom of Information Act, Year 2000

"Part I
Access to information held by public authorities
Right to information

1 General right of access to information held by public authorities
(1) Any person making a request for information to a public authority is entitled—
(a) to be informed in writing by the public authority whether it holds information of the description specified in the request, and
(b) if that is the case, to have that information communicated to him."


Freedom of Information

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 17:01

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 doesn't apply to the Isle of Man. The Island doesn't have any similar law at the moment, only a code of practice on access to information - which can't overrule legal restrictions such as that quoted above.


What about the equivalent in

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 17:10

What about the equivalent in Iceland ? do it there if need be.
You might have guessed that Fraggle Rock wouldn't be up to date.
Lord, if their future for banking services after this bag of crap is opened aren't over, then I don't know what else it would take.


Yes, and I've also threatened

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 14:29

Yes, and I've also threatened PWC with that too, normally there is a stock reply in 10 minutes from them, but they seem to be digesting this a little more.


Also threatened

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 14:49

Just some information to help.
The FSA2008 came into effect by a number of appointed day orders (and in fact not all of it is yet in force), I think that the information (i.e. Guarantee) may well have been supplied prior to the FSA2008 coming into effect, in which case maybe the FSC's answer is not quite correct....

Also maybe say that you are asking them in their role as 'joint petitioner' not as a regulator...

I think them acting as a joint petitioner may haunt them....


guarantee

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 17:27

There's a bit more to it than that. The guarantee was referred to in submissions to the court by advocates for IOM gov and the parties to the petition in the recent hearing (so I am told), so there is good reason for all of them them to be required to produce it.


Parental Bank Guarantee Is It Still Subsisting?

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 11:07

That mysterious bank guarantee? The one that no one is allowed by the FSC to have a look at?

Does anyone actually know for certain that the KSF parent bank, which issued the guarantee to the Isle of Man authorities, has actually been 100% nationalised by Iceland so as to include KSF (IOM) Ltd within the new structure along with previous parental obligations?

I say this because so far the only quoted reference to this guarantee that I have seen on this website contains a phrase to the effect that the parent bank guarantees KSF IOM LTD only so long as it remains a subsidiary of the aforesaid parent.

“A new broom sweeps clean!”

Somewhere a poster has quoted directly from a document, possibly KSF (IOM) LTD promotional material, and which includes the aforesaid caveat.

What if KSF (IOM) LTD is not any longer a subsidiary in the same form as before? After all, when the UK "nationalised" such as Bradford and Bingley as I recall, the split was three ways. The shareholders went down the drain with nothing, the savings went one way and the mortgages went another.

In other words, selective or "cherry-picked" nationalisation.

Likewise, a key part of the Northern Rock was in Jersey and the Westminster legislation made no attempt at the time reach this far largely because there is no automatic jurisdiction without States of Jersey co-operation.

KSF (IOM) LTD likewise does not come within Icelandic jurisdiction without the co-operation of Tynwald so how could it be nationalised save by some special acknowledgement from Iceland that it upholds KSF (IOM) Ltd obligations even though it has no direct legislative powers.

KSF (IOM)) Ltd, as we have seen, has been obliged to undertake actions independently on the Island as an Isle of Man incorporation.

I may have missed some details of this topic as there is so much here, but although the UK and Isle of Man have called upon Iceland regarding the guarantee, has Iceland acknowledged it specifically as actively subsisting as such?

If not specifically supported, and if KSF (IOM) LTD has been "cherry-picked" out of the scene such that the nationalised set-up is a clean break and a new start subject to political winds of change, then maybe KSF (IOM) LTD and its guarantee have both been wiped off the radar so as to make that guarantee invalid?

Is this why they do not want anyone to see the actual text?

I submit this in good faith so no insults about conspiracy theories please. I raise it for edification.


HELP Barrie has taken over the world!

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:07

No more


Parental Guarantee

  • 9-10
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 21:08

I found this quote from Mr Aspden,
"I know that lawyers are looking carefully at the basis on which funds were placed with the London bank,
to see whether such a segregation or prioritisation might be justified......"

If the movement of keiom assets from iceland to keuk was a mutual agreement and possibly with uk / iom authorities approval, then it would have been reasonable for the iom authorities to ask for a replacement of the origional 2007 guarantee with one eminating from the uk arm.
As kaupthing iceland was no longer the main beneficiary of keiom deposits the parent was robbed of its ability to guarantee anything.
Our guarantee should have moved with the money.
If this was not ensured, then surely banking regulations were ignored by all involved.
The bank touted a parental guarantee which could not be honoured once the uk arm became the donee.
Keuk, being the recipient of most of keiom deposits should be our guarantor, instead, 'certain' people have the gall to to consider us as unsecured creditors !
Some of the great minds here should be proposing a legal/political reason to be a preferred creditor.
I would like more from barrie stevens on this !
In good faith of course.

Its my first post so i'd like to thank each of the 'team' for their grit.
This great forum is a priceless shoulder.
L'union fait la force !


Guarantee from KSF UK?

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 21:46

The guarantee wasn't actually linked to where the funds were deposited, it was linked to ultimate ownership of the bank.

At least with the money being in KSF UK there are two potential avenues to seeking its return (London and Iceland) rather than just one (Iceland) - which would have been the case if both the deposits and the guarantee were in the same place.

As for being a preferential creditor - those are laid down firmly in law (basically employees and the tax man). There isn't any room to wiggle in under that category.

The only way KSFIOM could be in a better position with KSF UK is if it was a secured creditor. Security is different from a guarantee - it is having a right to take something specific (collateral) if the money isn't paid back. It is much like the way a mortgage is arranged - the ownership of the house is security for the mortgage loan. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to have been any collateral for the KSFIOM deposits in KSF UK, and it's not something that can be conjured up at this stage if it never existed.


Tesco

  • Yogi
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 17:28

Did Tesco close early today then?


Tescos

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 17:36

It is open till 10pm on a Saturday I think.
Its Sunday when it closes early


Tescos

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:57

Never did work for Tescos..But then I was not also mug enough to lose my money either! I can be rude too!


Oh dear

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 16:54

OK, dealing with these various points:

  • Kaupthing Banks hf. was not 100% nationalised. The directors were removed and control was taken by a resolution committee appointed by the financial supervision authority. Ownership remains with the shareholders, and the shares remain suspended.

  • Nationalisation doesn't change ownership of things owned by a company - including subsidiaries. Hence in taking ownership of Northern Rock, the UK government also gained ultimate ownership and control of the part of the company in Jersey - the States of Jersey didn't come into it. Likewise with Bradford and Bingley (the company was fully nationalised, then some parts sold to Santander). In a similar way, if the Icelandic government were to take ownership of Kaupthing then they would also get full ownership of KSFIOM. Tynwald get no say in that - any attempt to take the ownership away from the nationalising government would be expropriation and thus illegal under international law, so Tynwald wouldn't get Royal Assent for any law purporting to interfere.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:43

I discussed the Northern Rock Situation at the time with the office of George Osborne (Tory front bench)...It was raised in parliament in the House of Commons about the Jersey part of Northern Rock ie where the juicy bits were...It was likewise stated that no attempt at that point would be made force legislation with Jersey...Or extend legislation from Westminster...Have they done so since..I do not know?...I raised the above as a question and you may have answered it but I think wrongly..My experience of 40 plus years ago in similar situations leads me to think that the g'tee is worthless for aforesaid reasons and political manipulation...Time will tell!....There were comments at the time that the Jersey aspect was to be left alone


Oh dear indeed

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 01/11/2008 - 17:08

cold-dose - how politey put, Barrie clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and has an agenda on other sites of saying all KF depositors are tax evaders, claims an IoM address when he elsewhere claims he is ordinarily resident in the UK, and provides pages of cut and paste text in relation to ECHR claims.

I wholly agree with what you say, I wonder why Barry pursues this nonsense.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:09

Can I please suggest that everybody ignores this man

He is not a depositor or even now a permanent resident of the IOM but fills this website and the local papers with tripe and tosh

Barrie go and find something useful to do with your time............... PLEASE


Good grief I've just

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:56

Good grief I've just realised, Barrie is part of the UK gov media team trying to snow us out of the news! Even the recent comments thread is being snowed now!! Morning Barrie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:54

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:53

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


Barrie Stevens

  • barrie stevens
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 09:53

I have not said all KSF people are tax evaders there is too much read into it..

The above was rhetorical and may have been answered I think wrongly in terms of the "Great Game"...

I did genuinely put up a case for the European Court of Human Rights for Alan Edwards and his family and which received a lot of press coverage at the time.

I also did actions for the High Court and Court of Appeal all as litigant in person..I doubt my critics have done as much!

Everything written here has been written from memory ie I did not cut and paste. I put it straight down having retained it for some 8-9 years.

I got a lot of publicity at the same time "Impeaching" then Chief Minister Don Gelling!

I saw the crash in the Isle of Man coming. Wrote and broadc ast about it and left early April but I retain my address until the break is complete.

Look all this started because I tried to explain the Constitution. The more you insult the more I shall write.


guarantee

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 20:07

Yes Elgee, I think it was me who made that point.


manx-person

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 22:51

Thank you for making that point.


YES MANX I THINK IT WILL

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 30/10/2008 - 14:51

YES MANX I THINK IT WILL