MY CONVERSATION WITH EDWIN COE

  • tsunamivictim
  • 11/10/08 n/a (free)
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Posted: Thu, 16/04/2009 - 12:20

Over the last few days I have had several informative conversations with our lawyers Edwin Coe. I did this because there is no information on the site. We all seem to be fumbling in the dark asking each other questions to which none of us know the definitive answers.
I now have some clear answers in english speak.
In the "in flight "magazine on the flight to the IOM, Allan Bell proudly states that " 66 billion pounds is on the IOM because of our DCS" . At the same time in Court he said to the Deemster that the DCS is uncertain. He can't have it both ways! One can only surmise he made this comment in Court to sway the vote in favour of the SOA that he knows to be flawed..
It has been made very clear to me that the SOA is disadvantageous to virtually everyone. The only way to improve the terms of the SOA is by showing the IOM Treasury that we can produce enough votes against the SOA to swing in favour of liquidation. They do not want liquidation...we know that. If we can show more than 51% of votes in any one group against the SOA, we have a negotiating position. Without a negotiating position we are going to get the SOA wether we like it or not.
We can only negotiate from a position of power.
How do we get that?
Ok....we achieve that by using our votes. If you cannot be there because like me, you live thousands of miles away or cannot afford it, do not waste your vote. Apathy will get us the SOA exactly as the IOM want it.
You can vote using a proxy vote.. Give your proxy vote to someone you trust and who you know will be there. .
Please do not think its a done deal. It Isn't.
By giving your proxy vote we can produce votes in a big block en mass. We cannot just accept bad terms because we are too apathetic to use our vote to make our voices heard .
If we are strong and vocal with big block votes, then we can negotiate from a position of strength.
USE YOUR PROXY VOTE.

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SOA Vote

  • Fred
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 14:40

How are we to vote on the SOA? I assumed it would be a written ballot sent out by mail and returned. If not, then do we need to be present to vote?

If we need to be present to vote, then we should set up a system to give our proxy to a designated person ASAP.


proxy vote

  • slloyd
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 16:03

I would be quite happy to pass my vote over to DAG (for them to act as my proxy).
Would it help if DAG were to have a large block vote?


proxy name

  • simple
  • 26/01/09 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 22:29

Proxy has to be a named person, as already pointed out, so it, persumably, cannot be DAG (or can it?). Someone, therefore, has to be nominated who will cast a vote against the SOA, and whose name can be put on the voting form.


SOA Vote

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 16:00

The stratergy team are currently in the process of setting up a vote by proxy system
I believe details will be posted soon.

If you dont vote by proxy I believe you have to vote in person
It is important as always in issues like this that you vote or designate your vote by proxy

Voter apathy will not get us the result we need and deserve.


podather, Are you sure that

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 16:18

podather,

Are you sure that remote depositors will not have a postal vote?


podather, are you sure that - reply

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 20:01

Yes
You will have to attend in person or designate a proxy
You will not be able to cast you vote by mail.


podather, You are wrong on

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 09:15

podather,

You are wrong on this matter. I have phoned the SoA helpline and they have said that voting forms will be sent out allowing people to cast their votes. You will also be able to download these voting forms from the web site.

I am not sure where you are getting your information from but it does not seem to be from official sources!


postal vote

  • shafted
  • 10/10/08 12/12/09
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  • Sat, 18/04/2009 - 07:33

If a postal vote is available do not forget that it takes up to a week even from the uk for post to arrive.There is also the lost post senario which could happen! I think it would be safer to either vote in person or send a vote by proxy via a designated person.


Re: Postal vote verification

  • Anonymous
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  • Sat, 18/04/2009 - 12:49

I suspect the reason why we will be asked to return the voting document to Mike Simpson (Liquidator Provisional) is so our signatures, etc can be verified. I understand that voting forms may be printed off the bank's or governments website very soon (this coming week?) so that should help with the turnaround time for some.


podather, you are wrong on... reply

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 23:31

expatfrance 1

In that case there must have been a recent amendment to the voting forms I viewed a draft of.
If you are correct and you will now be able to specify on your proxy form how you wish to vote or also declare your desire for your
nominated proxy to vote as they see fit then this must have been added since the draft
On the original form i viewed you did not have the option to specify your vote just the option to specify your nominated proxy


Thanks for your reply, but

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 18/04/2009 - 04:54

Thanks for your reply, but this just goes to show you must be sure of your facts before posting on this forum.

It would not have take much to do what I did and phone the help desk before setting vulnerable people off with incorrect information. What is even more worrying is that you seem to be close to the DAG strategy team. I hope the DAG's legal council were not using this sort of rumour to base its decision!

I for one will wait until I have the facts before making decision rather than looking at what has been written in draft documents, or listening to hearsay.


@ expatfrance 1

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 18/04/2009 - 13:29

The SOA helpline was not even in place when I made my original posting so wonder how I was supposed to "do what you did" and clarify what I posted.

It would not surprise me in the least if this helpline was proporting mis information also

The proxy vote has no influence on the legal councils decision, that is based purely on the advantages and dis-advantages of both options, something you will have to consider now you have the option to specify how you wish to vote.

I posted based on the facts, if they change after that then I would either post a correction or clarify a posting correcting me was true and then acknowledge. (as i did)
While on this subject have spent many hours correcting people whose "facts" about the SOA or DCS were incorrect. Possible yourself included.
This did not prevent these people from posting incorrect "factual" information so I allow myself this alledged error

Regarding what is written in draft documents, the SOA we were presented with contained numerous typo's and mis representaions which we have been assured will be corrected.
As of yet they have not, but people are still considering the SOA based on what was intended and not the content of
the scheme document as it is written.

Should they fail to correct these you may vote for the intended scheme and instead received the documented scheme.

The differences are more that significant....


podather, Your original post

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 18/04/2009 - 14:08

podather,

Your original post was on 16th April and the SoA helpline was available from the 14th April. You still decided to raise the temperature on this particluar subject and post information from a draft without seeking further clarification.

As for the final vote. I will decide based upon the scheme document as written. I may seek further clarification regarding both the DCS and SoA but in the end the decision I make to vote for or against the SoA will be mine and mine only and will not be influenced by anybody telling me to vote in a particuar way.


Are you sure that by doing

  • nivit
  • 19/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 12:54

Are you sure that by doing this your individual vote will be counted or are you simply nominating M Simpson as your proxy?


Simpson would be nominated as one's proxy

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 13:17

And he would by law have to vote the way one has stipulated in one's voting form.


proxy and related voting issues

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 14:49

I have clarified this matter and this is the way I am informed that it should work:

  1. Voting by attending in person
  2. Voting by proxy
    (a) by designating a named person to vote for you in whatever way s/he sees fit
    (b) by designating a named person to vote for you in a particular way (for or against)
    (c) by not designating a person to vote for you, in which case chairman will do so, but the way in which you want him to vote (for or against) must be stipulated

If this is correct, then 2(c) would be the equivalent of a postal vote

I believe that DAG intend to ask ALL depositors to use method 2(a), the named person to be someone nominated by DAG to attend each of the meetings in classes (2) and (3) for the specific purpose of proxy voting, accompanied by a DAG lawyer.


SoA helpline?

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 14:55

I have telephoned the number given by a kind poster above. They were, as is reported above, giving out somewhat misleading information about postal votes. Having pushed the person I spoke to to go and check, they are no longer giving out that misinformation and they now understand that what they had been describing as a "postal vote" is in fact a proxy vote given by the creditor to the chairman with an instruction for the latter to vote a specified way (for or against).


Yes, so no need to book flights to IoM just yet

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 15:22

One can 'post' their 'vote' via the 'postal system'.

It is not an attempt by IoMT to Gerrymander.

Elgee,

Can we assume that when DAG asks "ALL depositors to use method 2(a), the named person to be someone nominated by DAG to attend each of the meetings in classes (2) and (3) for the specific purpose of proxy voting, accompanied by a DAG lawyer", that it will be made clear to ALL depositors, by DAG and the DAG lawyer, that DAG primarily 'represents' class 3 depositors, and that the interest of class 3 depositors may contradict the interests of class 2 depositors?

That is DAG is primarily representing those with over 50K at stake.


@chris watson: Yes, so no need to book flights to IoM just yet

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 15:22

Of course not - perish the thought.


Thank goodness for that, Elgee

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 15:28

...and with regards to DAG and "ALL depositors"?

I think you replied to my post as I was editing it, so you may not have seen my final version :)


Expatfrance1

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 09:50

Have you any idea when these will be sent out ? I am getting anxious as we are going away soon and won't be back until 19th May.


From the KSFIOM website

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 10:19

"The various Scheme Documents are required to be issued to creditors within 10 days of the Court Hearing"

Given everything else has been "last minute" - it would be a reasonable bet they'll be issued/sent 19 Apr 09

However:

"The Joint Liquidators Provisionally endeavour to issue this information through website updates as well as by post, by email, and through newspapers published internationally."


Caledonia, Afraid not, but

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 10:10

Caledonia,

Afraid not, but the lady on the phone did say they had not been sent out yet but would also be available to download from the internet.

You may want to give the helpline a ring:-

+44(0) 1624 699 340

As i have said before I am not trying to advocate how people should vote but just feel that everyone should be in posession of as many of the facts as possible to allow then to make a decision.


VOTING

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 12:37

Have just phoned hotline as suggested and this is what was I was told:

First of all of course, anyone who has claimed an EPS will have no vote, this has been signed over to the IOM Treasury.

KSF have already provided details to the Treasury of all addresses to send voting papers to.

Re SOA, he said version being sent out with be as per 9th April hearing, other than %'s and a user friendlier version. It will be on KSF website soon but not sure exactly when.

If you cannot attend the meeting, you use the forms sent out upon which there will be boxes to tick as per your vote. This you send to the meeting and the Chairman will put forward your vote or alternatively there will be a DAG representative holding proxy's for people.

....... these are all his words not mine!

I do understand the difference between 'proxy' and 'postal vote' - but I guess at the end of the day its the same if you have indicated your choice. A proxy vote does not mean the person holding it uses it as they like, if you have indicated your choice.

Hope this helps ............


Caledonia, Thanks for

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 13:02

Caledonia,

Thanks for confiming all that. I also phoned again to clarify something you mentioned and after the person on the phone went off to consult someone else they confirmed that if you have claimed the EPS only the voting rights to the value of what you have received has been signed over to the EPS.

So if your deposit was for 100k and you have received 10k EPS you have only signed over 10k of voting rights and will still be able to vote but it will only be only worth 90k.


Expatfrance1

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 13:09

Many thanks and sorry - I did query this with him as this was my understanding regarding any difference in value, obviously the wrong one answered the phone!
He did also mention he THOUGHT the forms will be available to download off the website, but here again, don't hold your breath.


No VOTE?

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 12:57

@ Caledonia

How can anyone who has received an EPS have NO vote?

This cannot be unless the ESP covered your entire deposit.


bellyup, See previous post

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 13:02

bellyup,

See previous post


EPS votes, Expatfrance1?

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 15:52

So the votes of a depositor who claimed EPS, up to the maximum EPS value (10K), reside with IoMT, and as IoMT are to remain 'neutral' in the vote, these votes will be counted as 'abstained'?


Not sure. I know that in

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 16:27

Not sure. I know that in theory the IOM Treasury could use the votes they have aquired in anyway they choose, but I remember seeing that the DAG had been told that they had no plans to use them.


proxy vote

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 20:18

A proxy usually has a space to name the person who you appoint as proxy, and if the name is not completed then the chairman of the meeting will be the 'default' proxy and will cast your vote in accordance with the direction on the proxy form.

So whilst the vote isn't a postal vote, it is analogous to one.

This should be made clear on the form of proxy, and should be available on the web site in the next 4 or 5 days I think.

No doubt this will be clarified by the strategy team once the document is made public.


Proxy vote

  • Brabander
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 20:45

Sorry Manx-person, you are spreading dubious information.
This proxy arrangement is NOT analogous to a postal vote. In a postal vote the voter personally sends in his vote in writing. With a proxy vote somebody else votes on behalf of the creditor. This is always open to abuse. Moreover, as I believe, Podather already pointed out the chairman casts the vote of creditors with incorrect proxy forms. It does not require much guessing whether he will vote for the SoA.
Why should I have to delegate my RIGHT to a vote to somebody else?


"Sorry Manx-person, you are spreading dubious information".

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 15:57

Talk about throwing black pots in glass houses!


Proxy Vote

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 12:46

I assure you the information I am spreading is not dubious - please take care in your allegations !

In the case of specific instructions being provided on the proxy form, whilst not Manx law I would suggest that you consider the requirements of paragraph 7.9 of SIP 3 issued by the Joint Insolvency Committee, the terms of which Mr Simpson will be obliged to consider as it has been adopted by his professional body the ICAEW.

Mr Simpson is an officer of the court, and any misdemeanour would be treated very seriously by the Court


Abuse of Proxy

  • Tugfiend
  • 27/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 17/04/2009 - 09:05

I don't think this is likely. The forms attached to the explanatory statement have boxes to tick, showing whether you want your proxy to vote in favour, against, or use his discretion.

I would have thought the IOM lawyer appointed by DAG would be the best proxy


MS 9Apr09 update

  • Anonymous
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 17:11

"...Those wishing to vote need to ensure that they are present or if voting by proxy need to ensure that the Form of Voting and Proxy is returned as soon as possible, and in any event, received by 5p.m. on 15 May 2009 by the Provisional Liquidator..."


tsunamivictim - can you tell us what Edwin Coe said?

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Thu, 16/04/2009 - 13:12

Can you tell us in any detail what Edwin Coe think?