Legal Representation

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:21

sleeplessnight sent a message using the contact form at
http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.netgenius.co.uk/?q=contact.

NG - can you start a forum based on legal representation so we can ascertain
the following:
1. if everybody is happy to appoint someone
2. if anybody has a contact who would be willing to help
3. could we get an arrangement for retrospecive payment?
4. if we have to pay how much can we raise

I think this is crucial. we are wasting time that a legal rep would be
configuring everything for us.
many thanks

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In Flight Transfers - Grounded Transfers

  • Relentless Posse
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 17:39

I think we are missing the point here.
Deposits are owned by indiviuals - period.Whether they are migrating through the paper boundaries of the world or parked in a pigeon hole they have an owner.

I think trying to distinguish whether you paid your ticket to get on the boat and whether you should be on the ship after it left dock is a bit of a no brainer.
Fighting to get ALL the money back is a brainer.


Legal Rep

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 22:39

I think before we start getting ahead of ourselves we need to firstly find out for sure who we would be looking to sue.
Next how likely are we to suceed.
I think we have all had enough money taken off of us without getting the run around from a bunch of lawyers. Note being funny but there is only one person i trust less than a lawyer and thats a banker!!! (estate agents are in there too lol)
Also we need to know where stand a bit more first???

Having said that some preliminary enquiries wouldnt hurt.


Legal Representation

  • worriedsaver
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 22:08

Thank-you to Hopper , Expat and website builders ,etc who have worked so hard at this for all of us . With regard to legal representation is there a consensus about which firm of lawyers to apoint should we do so as a group . I am now inclined to believe a lawyer of some sort may be the best person to represent all our interests and obviously it would be better if we could bear the costs of this somehow as a group . I also think and have been advised that we may have more impact if we act as a group with regard to any possible legal action . I will accept the views of those of you who have managed to do all the work so far . Unfortunately I am living in the USA but considering flying back now . Does anyone know if we need legal representation before 24th or after we hear the update from the liquidator then ? I have requested an initial opinion from the firm Hopper suggested Mrs Polly Frost regarding my personal position but I will go with appointing whoever the majority want .


Legal representation

  • HOPPER
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 19:01

folks on this thread might want to take a look at the legal team i am using for claiming in flight transactions - the barrister in particular, given his experience.


legal case for pending transactions?

  • matti
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 17:24

I contacted Hopper's solicitors but they are only going to deal with transactions which had left the bank for now.
I managed to request a CHAPS transaction on my cash on the Wednesday morning, after days of trying and being denied access to my account, but it was still pending when all hell let loose.
The solicitors said there may be legal case for this situation but it will not be their focus for now.
I know others are in the same position as me. I've tried calling several lawyers but haven;t found anyone who can give me advice on this. I;d prefer to do this as a small group to keep costs down (imperative for me now).
Is anyone in the same situation in touch with a lawyer who can help me?


Matti - Please see my new forum post

  • codhelpus
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 23:15

re: depsitors who made a transfer request on 8th but wasnt actioned. Would like to know your comment
If possible - please direct any others in our situation to here. I agree, there is a slight confilict of interest for
us with the 'in flighters'. It under the 'legal represenation' forum


Pending transactions

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 21:34

There may be a case, on similar grounds, but it would need to be taken under Manx law, which is distinct from English common law. For example, the Quistclose precedent isn't directly translatable to the Isle of Man, as it is not binding on the Manx courts - it is merely persuasive.

You would likely have to engage a Manx advocate. (The Isle of Man does not have a split between solicitors and barristers - only 'advocates')


Update from liquidator

  • Honest Citizen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 13:03

Read it, folks. It's important.
http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/Pages/3988


Top firm - Cains Advocates -

  • Stakeknife
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 20:04

Top firm - Cains Advocates - already representing KSFIOM. If you don't get Dickinsons and are happy to pay for it, you might as well not bother. Seriously. The best people are already where they need to be.


you're all still at it

  • Kaupthing Over ...
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 19:41

I went to see one of Londons most formidable law firms today and what I was told was so stultifying that I wouldn't even write it here.It's going to need a personal meeting with ANY involved depositors within reach of London.Sincere apologies to all of you in remote locations for now.
The big picture here is FAR bigger than I could've imagined and am still reeling from it.
However there is one killer blow strategy that came out of it, but it's going to get dirty.
I'm frankly having difficulty keeping up with this site now but have to post this on the 'meeting at the treasury' thread and elsewhere and have to look at' sending messages to other users thread.'
The firm was MISHCON DE REYA by rhe way.They claimed to probably know more about this kaupthing issue than any other firm in the uk and from the details of the discussion I'm inclined to believe them


KAUPTHING OVER please

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 07:33

KAUPTHING OVER please enlighten us. We need to be armed with whatever facts there are asap


MISCHON DE REYA

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 19:52

Kaupthing Over - please no striptease what did they say? The benefits of this site (with all its problems) is that suggestion/info gets bounced of many people and sometimes progress is made quickly. Enlighten us please


Insolvency/Banking Law Practitioners

  • DXB
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 19:58

I'm intrigued. Mishcon have a great reputation for private client work, but I've never imagined them as a top flight banking/insolvency firm. Do enlighten us as to the "big picture"!


Prey do tell

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 22:17

Prey do tell, e mail me if you dont want to put it on the site


Legal representation class action

  • Consuelo
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 18:47

I for one cannot see the downside in obtaining legal advice (preferably from a firm in IOM) and am prepared to contribute to this


NEXT STEPS

  • Pedro
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 17:53

Dear all: has anyone spoken to lawyers in UK or Isle of Man and has a clear view of the legal actions to be taken pre and post 24th October?

best,

Pedro


get organised

  • Kaupthing Over ...
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 01:43

Mishcon had a guy in my discussion who said he'd been sitting round the table with icelandic ministers the day before.But it wasn't only on that basis that they suggested they probably know more about the kaupthing issue in it's entirety than any other firm in the country.
They are representing a range of interests in this debacle (not conflicted) and there was a sense that me as a depostir esp. linked to this group ,would complete the whole set.
There was realistically too much detail to delineate in this post so i will come back to it again after I debrief myself but the bottom line going forward is that we must organise properly and ensure we have a physical presence at any IOM meeting of significance involving pwc and or fsa.I'm heartened to see that the team has indeed submitted an impressively comprehensive list of questions for bagpuss Brown and PWC today.
Suffice to say for now that this war is just now getting started and it's not one we're going to loose.


Tell us more if you can

  • TykeinSingapore
  • 12/10/08 22/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 06:54

I have had difficulty getting anyone interested in the our case, it makes it more difficult when you are sat in Singapore, would greatly appreciate any further news or advice.


Gunpowder, Treason and Plot

  • VikingRaider
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 07:14

All very intriguing stuff, but the real question I want to know is did Reykjavik try to do a runner with the cash or did Whitehall have a 'Charge of the Light Brigade' moment and act prematurely?


Class Action

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 15:48

I noticed on the Channel 4 News program the other night that the Icelandic Government are looking into the
possibility of suing the UK Government over the way there action forced the collapse of there largest and only surviving (at that time) bank therefore destroying the entire financial services industry of Iceland.
I made a note of the gentleman they had choosen to represent them and emailed him regarding the possibility
of all of the depositors of KSF IOM also suing the UK Governement for recovery of there loses (should we not get 100% back) and employing his firm to assist us.
My feelings were if they were good enough to represent the Icelandic Governement in there claim then they would be good enough in my opinion to be considered to represent us also
He replied to my mail stating he needed to check there was no conflict of interest , he didn't think so, and speak to some others before responding and advising how to pursue should all other avenues fail us.
I also asked for clarification of how we would be required to fund such an action.
I will update you when I have more.


time money

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:02

We'd have to sue governments. Iceland, UK most likely. This will take time and money. UK used the Terrorism Act. How can the UK gov lose in any legal action? The Terrorism Act! This seems to cover everything.


tailchasers

  • Kaupthing Over ...
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 23:53

you lot are killing me on this thread chasing your frigging tails round.
I'm going to see one of central Londons heftiest law firms 11 am sharp.
They do banking, international company law,lobbying and are more than capable of bullying whoever stands in our way.
I told him to check this site already but that was before I realised that all of you are more concerned with virtual morris dancing than getting your money back.
if any single one of you has the sac to come out of the closet and text me some salient questions to put forward, my number is zero seven eight six two seven zero eight six six two.
Otherwise save the hot air for when the gas prices go up this winter.
Obviously I will not purport to represent anyone but myself etc etc.


Robust legal action needed . . . to chase our money

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 06:11

I must agree with your sentiment, but am in Australia. What is actually needed is for someone there to enlist the services of a competent and accomplished legal team to represent all KSFIOM deopsitors in a class-action suit. One with teeth. Perhaps one of the hapless KSGIOM employees could provide a list of all affecte depositors and their contact details? How would fail to join a class action suit?

Any ideas,

Best,


Legal suit

  • JanLars
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 18:27

My suggestion would be to get a reputable firm on the front line, in IOM, AND someone who is a depositor himself at KSFIOM, one such gentleman being:

Stephen Mann
Gough & Co
Advocates & Notaries Public
5th Floor, Anglo International House, Bank Hill, North Quay, Douglas, Isle of Man IM1 4QE

Telephone: +44 (0)1624 623919 Fax: +44 (0)1624 620230 Website: www.goughco.com

Partners: Alan L Gough E Paul Kerruish


EXPAT - Legal contact

  • frozenrover
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 20:43

Expat - not sure if you got a response to your earlier request - this is the guy I think you were referring to -

"My suggestion would be to get a reputable firm on the front line, in IOM, AND someone who is a depositor himself at KSFIOM, one such gentleman being:

Stephen Mann
Gough & Co
Advocates & Notaries Public
5th Floor, Anglo International House, Bank Hill, North Quay, Douglas, Isle of Man IM1 4QE

Telephone: +44 (0)1624 623919 Fax: +44 (0)1624 620230 Website: www.goughco.com

Partners: Alan L Gough E Paul Kerruish "

Could you let us know if they will represent the group etc

Many thanks


Class action suit

  • sosnovka
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 06:20

Not being a lawer this however does sound the best to me. I am not sure wether we´d have to pay upfront for it, but I would personally raise any money for this, beg if I have to.
All the other ideas lack the conrtol required to achieve the aim. Additionally, the law firm might have access to the info that would be denied to an individual. The bad thing is that it might take ages (amongst other things)


K, The main issue and

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 00:09

K,
The main issue and question relates to the IoM money lent to the UK bank in London and its status. UK govt closed the london branch thus cutting off the IoM bank from its money and forcing it to close. If these funds are identified and re patriated to IoM it would represent over half the deposits and substantially increase the chances of the funds being distributed. This and the Parental guarantee clause from the still operasting Kaupthing bank in Iceland.
Wish you well today.


Legal Rep

  • gerrydp
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 22:47

Guys, As a London baseed Lawyer I think we really do need to have legal representation in light of the numeous elements involved with this. I think instructing a local solicitor will be key. We can then be guided as to how to embark on the road to recovery. Our options are to all instruct a common firm ageed by the majority either as a group (albeit one without a legal identity or any form of constitution) or as a class or as individuals. The issue that we will stumble upon is funding.

I would suggest that we look at a couple of firms that will be able to rise to the size and scale of the task. They in turn once instructed will be able to lead.

Apart from the firms mentioned in other posts does anyone have any other suggestions?

We should be acting with one voice. Im fearful that there is a lack of uniformity which means nothing gets done. A 10 point action plan with assigned individuals should be drawn up and carried out.

Time is also important. Without taking action before high level decisons are made could mean missing oppounites.


Unified, class-acton representation needed.

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Wed, 15/10/2008 - 06:21

Legal Rep has it right. Time for a class-action suit by a competent firm who can achieve results for all of us KSFIOM depositors left in the lurch. Am far away in Australia and would readily follow the lead of someone locally. Perhaps Legal Rep could act as our focal point? Identify a proper firm, visit and get their in principle agreement, obtain a listing of depositors, contact them, and get them to sign on board. Otherwise, I fear that each of us will ene up with SFA. Act now while there is still time.

Is there a Kaupthing IOM employee who can obtain a list of depositors and their e-mail addresses, preferably both hard and soft copy?

Is there someone in the UK who can is capable and willing to take the running on this?

I certainly do hope so.

My thoughts and prayers are with all of us - I think especially of the gentleman and his wife who are stranded in France with their little child. How awful. We pray for their speedy return to their home country - I am sure that they desire it.


Reminder: start new topic where applicable

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 20:04

Just a reminder folks, start a "topic" rather than continuing with "comments" if it would be more appropriate to do so. "Topics" are the basic units, "comments" should be relevant to the topic. This is just to try to avoid the ongoing proliferation of disorganised postings - sure, there are advantages of the "ongoing comments" approach - I'm just suggesting THINK: Is this really a comment or a new topic.


LEGAL REPRESENTATION IN THE ISLE OF MAN

  • steveservaes
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 10:16

Dear All
As you will see from my own registration over the weekend I am a KSF IOM depositor currently waiting to see the outcome of all this. However I am also a lawyer with Gough & Co, one of the Isle of Man's main financial litigation practices. We are already handling KSF claims from a number of depositors. Our team includes one of the IOM's most recognised financial services litigators and also significant experience in offshore bank liquidations (in other common law offshore jurisdictions). If you want to know more about the firm please see www.goughco.com
Kind regards
steveservaes


Steve Gough and Co

  • guttered
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 16/10/2008 - 19:31

Steve, expat has asked me to contact you asap - its urgent ....how best to contact you?


Manx lawyers

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 11:11

I've also spoken to some Manx lawyers today - Dickinson Cruickshank are conflicted, others have mentioned some others that are also conflicted.

In response to the question about where we rank, leaving aside the deposit compensation scheme, we are unsecured creditors. Preferential creditors rank ahead of us. Preferential creditors are broadly similar to the UK ones - i.e. the liquidator's fees, the tax man, and secured creditors. Secured creditors are creditors who have security (i.e. a mortgage or charge over assets of KSFIOM, typically specified). I'm having some company searches run on KSFIOM which will show if there are any secured creditors out there and how much they hold and I'll let people know the outcome of that as soon as I can.

I reiterate what I have said elsewhere - I'm a lawyer (albeit not a Manx one) and we are not yet at the stage where we need to instruct lawyers. The battle is a media one at the moment. We are unlikely to be able to find anything meaningful out until either the provisional liquidator returns to court on or before 24 October or the Tynwald makes an announcement or statement. The silence is frustrating, but the liquidator is appointed to act in our interests.

The point about no-one being left to represent us should we need legal representation is a good one though, and I asked the law firm I spoke to this morning not to act for anyone else that may leave them from conflicted in acting for me (as a depositor) without asking for my consent first. Having said that, if Gough & Co are not conflicted, I'd be more than happy to run with them on that basis also.


Preferred creditors

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 17:46

The law firm I spoke to earlier came back to me and told me that the searches today at the IOM companies registry show that there are no secured creditors (i.e. creditors that rank ahead of us by virtue of a registered charge).

This is good news for depositors, as it means there are fewer people in the queue of creditors ahead of us.


creditors PWC

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 17:51

just PWC ahead of us then!


and...

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 18:40

Also potentially the taxman and employees wages. None of the preferential creditors are likely to be in for significant amounts in proportion to the total.


General legal Advice

  • kiwi38
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 10:33

steveservaes - as someone (or part of a wider team) experienced in IOM law and more specifically financial services litigation and liquidation are you able to post any general legal opinion re where we stand please? I would suggest that if your company were prepared to show some goodwill in this regard and give us all a general overview (without doing anything which may damage the cases of your already retained clients) you will have a very grateful audience who would more than likely use the services of your company if this issue is not resolved and formal legal representation needs to be engaged. Could you please have a chat with your "litigator" and see if they are willing to anonymously allow you to post a general legal overview of our situation as they see it?


REQUEST FOR FREE OPINION

  • steveservaes
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 11:08

Dear All
I wish it was as simple as that. The people who have approached our firm have so many different angles/problems (corporates/individuals/lost-in-transits/people stuck in on fixed term) that such an opinion would probably take a year to write. I sincerely did not post on here to "tout" in any way (you can imagine what my own reaction would be to any "ambulance-chasing" at this time) but when I saw people were genuinely looking for legal representation (and some of the ideas were somewhat off-centre) I did think it would be the right thing to do to mention the firm, if people do actually want to pursue this legally. I can't really put any kind of advice on here - because the firm is already engaged by many clients and my colleagues who are dealing with these matters will have already advised them professionally. The one thing I can say at this stage is that in the Isle of Man there is no process of "administration" as there is in UK - so the appointment of a "liquidator" rather than an "administrator" just reflects what is/is not available in this jurisdiction. Best wishes to all. Steve


Steve, can I ask if there

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 11:15

Steve, can I ask if there would be a conflict of interests for our group to be represented by Gough & Co. if we chose to do so?


CONFLICT

  • steveservaes
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 11:19

No - there wouldn't


Steve - legal advice

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 10:30

Steve - given you are in the same sorry position as us can you provide some guidence and maybe a free opinion on where we stand?


thank you for this posting.

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 10:21

thank you for this posting. It is good to know there is legal activity for and on behalf of other parties, presumably not individuals as we are. This adds weight to the argument that we should be seeking our own legal advice (not necessarily representation before anyone jumps!!) be it Gough & Co or other specialist.


Legal matters

  • AMG56
  • 13/10/08 29/05/14
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 07:37

Hi everyone.
My son is a UK lawyer, based in Manchester with a large firm. He is speaking to his top people this morning. I will let everyone know the outcome.


Funding a lawyer

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 04:19

If we could chose a legal firm - I presume in UK - that firm could open a client bank account and people here could send money directly to it - to fund initial cost. We could give them our e-mail addresses to keep informed. Sorry if this is naively obvious.


legal500

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 04:05

If we chose a UK legal firm ideally it should be listed on legal500.


Re - Finding Lawyers web site

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 03:54

There is a web site of the best legal firms in UK - www.legal500.com
I think it is very good.


Re - Cohen Milstein Hausfeld & Toll

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 03:37

Re - this firm mentioned below - I looked up their site. They handle "Investor Protection" among other things.
They are lead council in Parmalat case ( how long has that been going on?).
address - 25 Southampton Building, London WC2A 1AK. No e-mail address supplied.
Tel 00 44 20 31707725
Fax 00 44 20 31707729


LAWYERS

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 03:08

I agree with Tubefly - this site is now too broad.
I think we all saw post about how over 10 US and UK Pension Funds and other institutions sent lawyers to Iceland on friday. I think there were so many there wasn't enough room for everyone.
Do we know if we should really be trying for compensation from Iceland directly or from Iceland through IOM govt.? Would IOM hire lawyers to fight for this money from Iceland - have they done so ?
Has there been any contact between IOM & Iceland - how can we know?
If we take a class action - I think legal costs are deducted from amounts recovered.


Hoping to restructure

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 03:20

I think "groups" are the solution. I just need a bit more time to set it up. So, you can have the "Action Group", the "Talk lots but don't do anything Group" and so on. The point is, the people are HERE, just need to get organised.


thanks ng

  • brokefirefly
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 03:22

thanks ng, that sounds great. Are you actually sleeping?!