JLs announce 2nd Dividend 15.2% payable 8 Dec 2009

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Mon, 07/12/2009 - 16:49

JLs announce 15.2% for December payment

http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/Pages/4163

7 December 09

Second distribution
The Joint Liquidators are pleased to announce that a second distribution of 15.2% will be paid on 8 December 2009 to all creditors whose claims have been agreed.

There are some cases where payments are being held over due to queries over the amounts claimed, payment details or signatures. We will continue to work through these queries as quickly as possible so that catch-up payments can be made to the relevant creditors.

We are aware that there are a number of potential creditors who have not yet submitted a claim, either directly or through the Depositors Compensation Scheme. We invite those creditors to submit their claims as soon as possible so that they can receive the distributions to which they are entitled.

Future distributions
As the liquidation has progressed, more information has become available in respect of potential asset recoveries and are now in a position where we will shortly be able to release a meaningful estimate of future distributions. We intend to post our estimate on the website in the next few days in order that creditors may have a better indication of the final outcome.

4.57143
Your rating: None Average: 4.6 (14 votes)

Comment viewing options
Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Icecrusher reported: The

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 07:44

Icecrusher reported:
The Joint Liquidators are pleased to announce that a second distribution of 15.2% will be paid on 8 December 2009 to all creditors whose claims have been agreed.

But IB Times and other newspapers talk about 10 p in the pound.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/20091208/kaupthing-singer-friedlander-...

and now I see that it's 10p in the pound in the Shout Box. Forgive my ignorance, but isn't 10p in the pound equivalent to 10%?

So which is correct and why did Icecrusher think it was 15.2%? Was there a last-minute change. Wasn't it originally supposed to be 14%?


@podcar - dividends

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 08:51

Hi podcar,

There are two different issues here:

15.2% is the declared second dividend from KSFIOM paid on 8 Dec to KSFIOM depositors (as announced on the KSFIOM bank website here http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/Pages/4163). The 14% was an estimate - indeed I think they said it should be at least 14%; the exact figure depended on cash becoming available.

10% is the declared second dividend from KSFUK paid on 9 Dec to all unsecured creditors of KSFUK (announced on the KSFUK site here http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/Pages/3663?NewsID=4272). The JL's of KSFIOM should therefore receive from the Administrators of KSFUK 10% of their currently agreed inter-bank claim. This money will then be available to be included in the third KSFIOM dividend (I think someone has estimated it will represent around 2%).

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.


anrigaut

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 13:46

Hi anrigaut - Thanks for the explanation but I'm sorry, I'm more confused than ever.

I deposited my money in KSF IOM - does that make me a KSF UK creditor (unsecured)? I am a total innumerate and I really can't make any sense of the Calculator. When we talk about percentages, we're talking about a percentage of what? Of the total loss? Of my individual loss? I'm in alien country here, I just don't understand the language.

Basically, all I want to know (apart from when I'll be getting all my money back) is if I can expect some cash in December. Will it be 10% or 15.2% and will any be left over (for me) after the £50,000 paid out by the DCS is covered? And on that point, why do I have to cover the compensation paid out to me - but maybe that's another subject.

The Scheme Manager wrote to me that: "To date you have received £50,000 which represents 32.1% of your claim." (It appears that the amount that KSF stated I had in October 2008 was a few hundred more than they're saying I have now - yet another mystery.) I assume that means that I still have 67.9% of my money outstanding (that's a simple calculation even I can dO). Is that enough information to calculate if I can expect any cash later this month? If so, can you explain how to calculate it.

Apologies for being so obtuse - I'm sure it's very clear to everyone else. But it's a total blur to me.


Hi Podcar, if you just enter

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 11/12/2009 - 13:15

Hi Podcar, if you just enter your deposit (assumed £155,700) in the Calculator under 'Principle' the answer is given in the bottom right table under 'Total so far'. To the right of this is a figure that you might receive in the next distribution (next year) if a dividend of 9%. is paid - you can change this percentage in the table when the JLs announce it or you can enter any percentage you might care to guess at!

Regarding the repayment of the £50,000, the DCS pays those depositors with accounts of £50,000 or less whatever sum that might be under the scheme regulations. All banks partaking in the scheme on the Isle of Man are supposed to contribute a proportion of money to help fund it, but only after a fellow bank has failed - there is nothing in the pot beforehand. The IoM Government have assisted this shortcoming by paying in some £150M of taxpayers money, but this is because they expect most (if not all) of it back because KSFIoM was a solvent bank with high-value assets. (Good quality loan book etc). If the bank had been broke, then the IoM would not have got its money back and therefore it is quite likely they would not have propped up the DCS. In that situation, depositors would have waited to get their up to £50,000 in dribs and drabs over many, many years. Had IoMG decided to still prop up the DCS under these conditions, they would not have garnered the support of IoM taxpayers because the £150M would never have been returned to the coffers. You can see by now that in the case of KSFIoM, this compensation scheme is nothing more than an advance of money expected to return to the IoM Treasury from liquidated assets.

As in all liquidations the compensation scheme takes the place of the depositor and pays out the money (should be very quickly, but 14 months is the IoM's idea of 'quick') and then waits for the liquidator to release monies to all creditors. This is what is now happening; the DCS paid you £50K representing 32.1% of your claim; without DCS you'd have received 24.8% (£38,614 assuming your deposit £155,700) and you then have to wait until the next dividend (or dividends) to reach a level that would pay you £50,000 after which you get the same proportion of the liquidated assets as everyone else. The whole point of a compensation scheme is to make the return of monies to depositors fairer to the holders of lower-value accounts, otherwise someone with just £50,000 or less in their account would receive only a quarter (24.8% in this case) = £12,400 whereas someone with £500,000 would receive £124,000. Although under liquidation the larger-value depositor still receives the larger dividend, the smaller depositor drawing on the DCS is guaranteed his return of £50,000 or whatever lesser sum held in his/her account.

Hope this helps to explain things.

Ice


Whoops, found the...

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 13/12/2009 - 07:11

table. It's beginning to make sense to me now - what a wonderful way to keep track. Thanks again.


Icecrusher

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 13/12/2009 - 06:52

Thanks for the explanation - I appreciate the time you took to explain it to me.

In the Calculator, I changed the amount under Principal but couldn't find a table titled Total so far. But I think it looks clearer to me now. Seems I'm going to have to wait quite a few years until I get everything back, though.


@Podcar

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 14:01

For those not in the DCS you will get or have already go 15.2%.

The 10% is KSFIOM's exposure to KSFUK. We are not directly creditors of KSFUK only our bank is a creditor (KSFIOM).
KSFIOM will recieve a dividend from KSFUK of 10% of all that KSFUK owes to KSFIOM we will eventually get this money which as Anrigaut says someone has calculated equals about 2% to us as creditors of KSFIOM.

Podcar you have receive £50,000 and the DCS will recover their £50,000 first from the the liqudiator and after that you will recieve dividends although I think you may experience a delay as it may pass via the DCS even after the £50,000 has been passed.

You say your £50k was 32.1% of your claim.
£50,k = 32.1% of £155,700.
40% of £155,700 = £62,300.

So when the 2nd Dividend is paid out and the DCS has recovered all its £50k you would have an extra £12.300.


Alistair

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 14:38

That's the best news I've had all week, well, all month really. I'm going to be some 12K closer to getting back 100% of my money. Many many thanks for the explanation and calculation.


@Anrigaut

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 12:42

How Much? Calculator

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 08/12/2009 - 16:12

Please see my latest Forum Topic which provides a calculating interactive spreadsheet to work out your dividends/DCS payments etc.

Ice


What STARS you guys are !

  • calpespain
  • 12/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 08/12/2009 - 07:31

I wonder if the property in Spain as disclosed to the COI was a friend of a friend ? And why would anyone lend so much on a property in Spain, a so unregulated country, where all or most of the property values are under declared for tax reason upon purchase and the sale. Still only another £ million down the drain. This needs to be looked upon closely as the declared value is never the sold value, by as much as 40-70% depending on region.

I thank Gordon 45 and Roman 2005 for such good workouts considering you guys are having to pick the facts out from the chaff flying about in the wind on the Isle of Man. You two and others are geniuses and should be given a medal at the end of all of this. If one of you is right about the return from the UK arm of KSF, then we could be looking at 92% or as one thinks it could be possibly be a 100% return here. Now wouldn't that be nice for us all. The only thing if that happened would be the months of lost interest on the total capital value.

I also see from information released that the liquidators have placed our money in various banks around the globe. Australia I can see because of the high rates on deposit currently 5-7% but for amounts of this size I would think a preferential rate would have been taken/given. The only bank I think was a risk is Wachovia Bank, as this parents bank, correct me if I am wrong, went to the wall last October 2008 in the US.

I too am also disappointed not to receive a 20% payout, I do hope that you guys can get to the bottom of that and ensure that in future we are given our money back ASAP to be able to invest and make a return for ourselves.

Again...Thank you guys who continue to battle for us all...you deserve to be recognized for your outstanding efforts. That includes those that have been taken off the websites for whatever reason but still continue to seek redress for us all, though they themselves have been fully compensated.


@IceCrusher

  • Ohdear
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 21:28

Thanks to you, Gordon 45 ..others. I don't know where I would be without your simple explanations.

I am one of those fools with over 100K deposit. I have now got 50K back from DCS. Considering the latest dividend, it works out that 42% of my deposit has been refunded to DCS. That means I have to wait for the remaining 8% to be returned before getting any more money. How ould I know when this has reached? Would the bank automatically let me know? Or after the fiasco of the first dividend I should pursue these people myself? If I have to pursue them who should I be contacting ...etc. Any support about all these complex processes would be most welcome.

Best wishes.


Thanks Ice,

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 18:14

Ice,

Thank you for the update,

To say I am deeply disappointed is putting it mildly as it appeared based on cash in Hand £238m as at 5.11.2009 that there was plenty of scope for at least 20%.for the 2nd dividend. I await the update from Mike Simpson to see how much they have held back including the £93.5m received from the Booker/JJB shares earlier in the year.

Perhaps I should be happy at 15.2%, but right now based on MS's figures I don't,

Cheers

Gordon 45


Gordon, From the figures

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 08/12/2009 - 09:55

Gordon,
From the figures produced earlier i formed the impression that the JLS would hold back funds on the possibility that the Habana appeal was allowed. My limited understanding is that if the appeal went thru all those who fall within the in flight net would have to be repaid in full straight away. They would argue that they should have their money and the court would back them up. I do not know how much this amounts to but I assume the JLS will have to keep back an amount in reserve to pay this until the court decides otherwise.
Once the appeal is known and if dismissed they will be in a position to either distribute it in the late spring when the next amount is due or perhaps make an interim payment if it is worthwhile. I am not defending their posistion, i have made it clear to whoever i speak more information is required. If they told us that was the issue everyone would understand, after all many people on this site are part of the in flight process. They decide to not tell us and we get agitated with them They wonder why!
John


thesunnysouth - from the figures

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 09/12/2009 - 11:36

Hi there John,

Your bang on it could be that situation - holding back in case the appeal is lost. The amount is £70m and that would bring down the dividend from 20/21p to 15.2p. I thought that perhaps something had cropped up re the 1st £65m ex the collateral/repo share deal - the sale of JJB/Booker shares and both totals are pretty near.

So thanks for that and I am trying as usual to get a response from our dear JLs.

If I get any clarification I'll post it immediately on the DAG.

Worth noting, in my view if we did lose this case I have assumed a interest rate of 7% (high on purpose) on the £70m for 18 months this would mean a figure around £77.52m pay out due to Habana. But if I am anywhere near correct re a return now of 92.11p in the £, although we would lose £77.52m immediately the £898m owed to creditors would drop by £70.0m so my eventual total would change as shown; £858m - 1.654 Pref creditors -£19.336m my guestimate for costs - £2.6m known write offs - £5.77m my est of further losses spoken of by JLs - £77.52 for Habana case loss =£751.917m. we would then divide this total by (£898m owed to creditors less the £70m owed via Habana giving a total of £828m).

Divide £751.917 by £828m = 90.8p in the £. A real loss of around 1.31p in the £. So hopefully not a disaster to us at the end of the day.

Will get back to you all as soon as I get anything to explain the situ,

Take care

Gordon 45


habana case

  • mr lynton
  • 27/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 07:26

Brilliant work again Gordon. Surely there must come a point with the in-flight case where the legal costs make it too risky for the in-flight claimants to continue - especially as the liquidators have a cost order against them. They will end up getting less than the predicted outcome for all of us if they lose? We all know what the isle of man legal system is like- they will knock back this appeal as the deemster is probably Simpson's cousin.


Explanation for KSF!)M second dividend of 15.2%

  • yorkist
  • 01/07/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 01:00

Hi Gordon 45

Since my last posting I’ve had a chance to take another look at trying to reconcile that 15.2% dividend announced by the JLs. Perhaps this is another explanation:

Cash on hand = £238.0m

Less: Unpaid dividends = £12.0m (from minutes of the last COI meeting)
Less: In-flight claims = £42.0m (amount remaining after first and second dividends – 60% of £70.0m)
Less: Share sale proceeds still tied up = £28.05m

Balance remaining = £155.95m

Less: Hold back for liquidator future costs and interest on in flight claims, etc. = estimated at £19.45m

Balance second dividend announced at 15.2% = £136.50

On the question of the holdback for costs and interest in the in flight claims. The LPs have indicated future costs at £15.0m which would leave interest on the in flight claims (if KSFIOM lose) at £4.45m (which considering the 24.8% dividend paid out within 11 months and a further 15.2% dividend paid out within 14 months isn’t too far from your own estimate.

Speculating on the next and third dividend
(Assuming the Habana case is held over for a second appeal and this next dividend is paid in early July)

Cash released from share sale proceeds still tied up = £28.05m
December 2009 second dividend from KSFUK = £20.5m
Remaining loan repayments from 2009 = £28.0m
Maturing KSFIOM loan book for 2010 (assume 50% of £29.0m) = £14.5m

Funds available = £91.05

KSFIOM third dividend equivalent of 10.1%

Plus any cash from a third dividend from KSFUK, plus any ‘catch up payments from KSFUK (cited in the COI minutes from the last meeting) plus any further reduction in the amount due to in flight depositors for third dividend payment). Otherwise, assuming the interest on the loan book will offset loan write-offs and additional interest to be accrued for the in flight depositors.

Regards

Yorkist


To Yorkist re reply to Gordon 45

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 15:02

Hi There,

Great stuff, got to agree I now think they held back the £12m + some proportion of the Habana in flight transfers and you could be right , have they paid out any to these people in the 1st & 2nd dividends, if so I think you are right again with around £42m held back. That means the payout I allowed for at dividend 1 and 2 in my tables 5 & 6 are both out - figures too high.

I probably get around, based on my tables £169m taking off the above figures and at a payout of 15.2% based on £898m -12m = £886 @ 15.2% = £134.672 leaving a net balance discounting the above 'held' backs of around £35m.

Re the next dividend again agree with you except I have taken returns om KSFIOM loan book at 80% you seem to be taking 100%. I also have allowed for around £2.91m back in interest by June 2010 assuming even spread on loans. But having said that based on the £60m due back in capital this year from loan book it is disquieting to see we still had £28m outstanding at end of October equivalent to 46.666%. And I do think, more loans will slip inc interest over the next 2/3 years - so I'm sticking with 80% eturn at present.

Re next dividend back from KSFUK I have guessed around 5p in the £ back in March/April but they have given 10p instead of the supposed 7p this month so it could affect what we now get in April/May as they have put this 3rd payment back 1to 2 months. So based on my supposition of around 21.2p for our second dividend and my guess at 10p next June - 31.2p in total, I now think we could have around £121m in the kitty inc £5 paid out to Habana creditors off the remaining £42m. So I think we could get around 12p in the £ still leaving £37m for Habana, 12m unclaimed and paying out on £886m known creditors.

But as you know all conjecture again.

Once we see this update from JLs wqe might know better,

All the best and well done,

Gordon 45


Habana case hold back

  • yorkist
  • 01/07/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 09/12/2009 - 22:00

Hi there Gordon 45

Thanks for your excellent work on potential dividends and timing, the final outcome certainly seems to be improving both in terms of the final recovery and the speed of that recovery. Hopefully, you’ll get those answers to your questions from the JLs.

Concerning the Habana case, I thought that the total amount involved here was originally £70.0m.

But why would Simpson want to hold back the full £70.0m? Unless none of the Habana case depositors received dividends I would have thought the maximum holdback for the Habana case would be £42.0m (£70.0m less the 24.8% and 15.2% dividends) plus perhaps a small amount added for interest.

Or am I misunderstanding the issue in that the £70.0m represents the amount remaining to be paid if the Habana case depositors win. If this were the case then the original Habana “in flight” deposits would have totaled £116.7m, (i.e. grossing up the £70.0m for the 40% dividends already declared). But the only number I have seen referenced is the £70.0m.

Regards

Yorkist


I thought that the TOTAL

  • frog
  • 10/10/08 13/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 09/12/2009 - 23:31

I thought that the TOTAL in-flight monies added up to £70M - not just the Habana amount. I was also told that the Habana case was different to the majority of in-flight issues, and it would not be certain that ALL in-flighters would be paid if Habana won the case.


Hi Frog Apologies if I

  • yorkist
  • 01/07/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 01:15

Hi Frog

Apologies if I confused the issue but it seems like the Habana case has become associated with all in flight cases, see below extracts from the COI policy statement. I was merely trying to offer some sort of reconciliation between the recently reported cash position for KSFIOM and the 15.2% second dividend recently announced by the JLs.

Habana case (In-flight transfer test case)

A total value of in-flight transfers of £70m are affected by this case.

Regards,

Yorkist


if memory serves me, the

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Thu, 10/12/2009 - 07:21

if memory serves me, the total of the in-flights is over £100m, and a percentage are effected by Habana.


@Gordon45 - what have they done now?

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 18:54

WE need those figures from the JLs Gordon, there is something amiss with this payment I reckon. What have they lost us now? Rounding the dividend to make a nice round total of 40% is somewhat contrived isn't it?

Ice


To Ice

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 22:22

Ice.,

I'm, so p----d off, £238m less 28.05m for shares we can't use until next May leaves £209.95m then I'm saying lets allow for total costs until Dec 2016 (19.336 -2.736.8=£16.5992) = £193.3508m divide by £898m = 21.53p.

Unless for some reason he did not use the £93.5m from the shares at all. That would mean £238m less £93.
5m = £144.5m then still say less £16.5992m for total costs = £127.9008 divide by £898m = 14.24p or don't take off the £16.5992m leaves £ £144.5m divide by £898m = 16.09p. So 15.2 as a % of £898 = £136.496. Take £136.496 from £144.5 = £8.004m.

Need to find out

I did copy the two JLs into my latest table. To-morrow I will write to them with thes figures and ask for an explanation.

I agree 15.2% seems very pat when it sums up to 40% - it's too neat,

Gordon 45


Message for Frog

  • Lostinspace
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 08/12/2009 - 02:47

Frog,

I know you are on the COI deal, so you are apparently sworn to silence.

But even so, is there no way we could start up the regular phone calls with Mike Simpson again, to let long suffering depositors know what is really going on?

Or would that compromise your confidentiality clause?

As several have said here, a 15.2 per cent dividend rounds things up to date at a nice, pat 40 per cent. Better than nothing, certainly, but still a chasm away from anything approaching an 88p (best hope?) return, let alone a world perfect 100 per cent.

Yours, in hope.....


Hi, I'm actually not on the

  • frog
  • 10/10/08 13/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 08/12/2009 - 15:54

Hi,

I'm actually not on the COI (dropped out to get the 7 in) but on the PPD group committee, so I don't have anything to do with this fabled confidentiality clause.

With regard to questions, we really are in the stage of working the liquidation now, so bi-weekly calls will probably not generate much extra information as things will change slower than previously (and we should be getting more information about expected returns rather imminently from the liquidator).

Having said that, the answers to the questions entered here that were asked at the last COI meeting will be sent to all PPD members in the next couple of days, followed with being published on this site. At each COI meeting, we'll collate a set of questions and have our PPD COI members ask them so that specific questions can be raised. I don't yet have a date for when the COI will meet.


The so called dividend

  • tonycBrisbaneOz
  • 12/10/08 31/05/13
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 22:08

I don't know why they call a return of capital a dividend. If I'd wanted dividends from Kraupthing I'd have bought shares.

Anyway, the longer the liquidator can drag this out the more they get. The press announcement on the Kaupthing IOM website should start "In order to protect the interests of the liquidator..."

Regards, TonyC


Thanks Icecrusher

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 17:44

Have to say i am disappointed its better than 14% but i sort of hoped it would be higher.


Disappointed too...But

  • chipmunk
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 17:52

Based on recent fugures and spread sheets it could have been nearer to 20% but I guess the upside is that the next (July ? ) the payout might be a little more wholesome than if we had rcvd a higher figure.

Merrty Xmas


Next dividend

  • Brabander
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 19:41

15.2% is better than a slap in the face but it is to be hoped that the next payout will be well before July 10.
KSFUK is making a distribution this month and expects to make another one in Mar/April 10.
As the Liquidators have retained at least 5% of "distributable" moneys and since further moneys will become available for distribution during Q1 the COI should therefore ensure that the Liquidators make a further dividend distribution no later than April 10.

Hopefully we will be more informed regarding future distributions once the Liquidators post further details on the web site as promised later this week. Gordon may then be in a position to estimate how much the Liquidator should be able to distribute in April 09.

In the mean time we should sit "tight" but we should remain vigilant as we are still owed an explanation for the reasons of the serious discrepancies in the accounts/statements.


To Brabander

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 07/12/2009 - 22:41

Bang on Mate,

See my reply to ICe,

Gordon 45