General Discussions

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 05:39

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Email to me from FCSC regarding KSFIOM-some hope

  • 1log
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 17:04

Have a look at the email below from the FSC IOM and the links I have pasted. Let us discuss this. It looks like the HM treasury is atleast thinking about us.
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_103_08.htm
http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/fsc/PressReleases/kaupthingsingerqanda.pdf
http://www.fsc.gov.im/lib/docs/fsc/PressReleases/kaupthingpressreleasech...

Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail and please accept our apology for the delay in replying.
We understand your concern regarding Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited. It is still too early to say how much will be recovered, but further details will be known in the forthcoming days and weeks.
Should Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited be wound up, the liquidator will set out to establish who has a claim as a creditor and the Depositors Compensation Scheme will take effect.
Since you wrote, the Commission has published additional information, which should address your query in the form of a "questions and answers" document and a statement by the Chief Minister in respect of the guarantee given by the parent bank Kaupthing hf.
In response to the publication of the revised Compensation of Depositors Regulations the Commission has also updated the description of the scheme on its website.
The Commission will make further statements as the situation progresses and we would suggest that you continue to monitor our website.
Regards
Paul de Weerd
Senior Manager
Financial Supervision Commission
PO Box 58, Finch Hill House, Bucks Road,
Douglas, Isle of Man, IM99 1DT British Isles
Email: paul [dot] deweerd(?)fsc [dot] gov [dot] im


I take this to be slightly better news

  • sami
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 16:28

I apologise if this has already been reported, but I don't think it has. It's from Bloomberg's today. The full article is below the link.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aXXW.vOmh8Ao&refer=uk

Iceland Pledges to `Honor' Foreign Bank Deposits (Update1)
By Tasneem Brogger and Helga Kristin Einarsdottir

Oct. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Iceland's government will ``honor its obligations'' to depositors at failed Icelandic banks abroad, including the U.K., said Prime Minister Geir Haarde, who will meet a British delegation to the island today.

Everybody needs to show some flexibility here,'' Haarde told journalists at a press conference in Reykjavik late yesterday. Banking Minister, Bjorgvin Sigurdsson, said tensions between Iceland and the U.K. are based on amisunderstanding.''

Iceland is striving to defuse a spat with the U.K. fuelled by concern British depositors may suffer losses on their Icelandic bank deposits. Prime Minister Gordon Brown this week threatened to freeze the U.K. assets of Icelandic companies, which employ 100,000 people.

The Icelandic government is working ``day and night'' to come up with a solution to its woes after its three biggest banks failed and the krona collapsed, Haarde said.

Billionaire retailer Philip Green is in talks with Iceland's government and Jon Asgeir Johannesson, chairman of Icelandic retail investment company Baugur Group hf, to spend as much as 2 billion pounds ($3.4 billion) on purchasing the group's debt in Iceland's failed banks, the Financial Times reported today.

Green confirmed to Bloomberg in a telephone interview today he had been in Reykjavik to talk with Baugur, adding there were ``no developments yet.''

Brown has threatened legal action against Iceland. The feud over money trapped in accounts of Kaupthing Bank hf and Landsbanki Islands hf, the biggest and second biggest Icelandic banks that were taken over by the local regulator this week, has sent relations between the two countries to the lowest since a 1970s dispute over North Atlantic fishing rights, known as the Cod Wars.

`Unfortunate'

Brown's remarks were unfortunate,'' Haarde said.We will honor our obligations. We may need some help from the U.K. authorities to do this in a proper way.''

The U.K. sent a delegation to Iceland yesterday to resolve the matter and talks will start today, Haarde said.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc, the U.K.'s third-biggest bank, is among British banks that may take losses of as much of 500 million euros ($677 million) on securities tied to this week's collapse of Icelandic banks, a person familiar with the matter said yesterday.

The collapse of Iceland's three largest banks, Kaupthing, Landsbanki and Glitnir Bank hf, has affected 420,000 British and Dutch customers, and frozen assets held by universities, hospitals, councils and even London's police force.

Iceland's authorities are ring-fencing the domestic interests and they're probably abandoning the liabilities externally,'' Standard & Poor's credit analyst Eileen Zhang said on Oct. 9.We can't put a number yet on how much money they need to fix this crisis.''

Iceland is preparing to ask for an economic aid program from the International Monetary Fund, Reykjavik-based broadcaster RUV said, citing people inside the government it didn't identify by name.

The country will start formal talks with Russia on Tuesday in the hope of securing a loan worth as much as 4 billion euros ($5.35 billion) after approaches to western central banks and governments didn't yield any results, Haarde said earlier this week.

To contact the reporters on this story: Tasneem Brogger in Copenhagen at tbrogger(?)bloomberg [dot] net;


No confidence in IoM authorities

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 15:57

Following my communications with the FSC in the IoM during the past few days, I have no confidence whatsoever that, if left to their own devices, either the FSC or the IoM government or the liquidator will be able to obtain anything remotely close to 100% recovery of depositors' funds up to 50k or to secure substantial compensation of depositors in anything approaching a reasonable period of time. Nor does it appear to me that the UK government, whose action against the UK subsidiary appears to have precipitated the collapse in IoM, is going to be of the slightest assistance. At best its clumsy and embarrassing sabre-rattling is likely to cause the Icelandic government to further entrench on their refusal to honour guarantees made to non-Icelandic residents. In any case the UK government does not appear to have the slightest interest in recovering losses of depositors in Isle of Man banks, irrespective of whether they are UK nationals.

So I for one am not prepared to keep quiet, as the earlier poster suggests, so as to give the authorities in the Isle of Man time to sort things out, because it appears to me that their interests are in covering their own backs and deflecting criticism from the FSC and the Isle of Man government and in trying to maintain the island's revenue from banking. In my view those interests are not the same as those of us whose savings are presently lost.

Accordingly, I would be interested in contacting depositors and other interested parties who are or have been lawyers, accountants, politicians and bankers and others with relevant experience so as to develop a strategy for applying pressure to optimise the likely recovery of funds in the short term and to expose any failings there may have been on the part of the corporations and the regulatory authorities involved and take appropriate action.


Pulling their finger out?

  • VikingRaider
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 17:24

I've been monitoring the traffic including what I thought was a good debate in the House of Keys and recognise the IoM government has abundant experience of quiet diplomacy. HMG is responsible for the good conduct of IoM's defence and foreign affairs and IoM makes a financial contribution to that end. If HMG fails to make adequate diplomatic and legal representation on IoM's behalf, there is a battery of constitutional law that Douglas could open against London in the UK AND Europe that would make FCO diplomats go bananas. That's not 'the game' here, however. London and Reykjavik need to posture a little (e.g. the Russians dangling loans and bellicose British rhetoric) to pave the way for an IMF/World Bank rescue for Iceland that will include payments to depositors if private sources are unwilling or unable to take on the liabilities. Think of Sweden 1992, Mexico in 1994, Thailand and South Korea in 1998. What is different this time, however, is that the noise coming out of the Credit Crunch Crisis means that the IMF/World Bank know they are about to have a queue of countries awaiting rescue packages and are not accustomed to bailing out small, wealthy North Atlantic islands with £20,000 annual GDP per capita. Hence both London and Reykjavik need to beat their breasts and snarl at one another to persuade the IMF contributing countries that the Icelandic banking crisis should get first call on the cash.


"covering their own backs and

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 16:06

"covering their own backs and deflecting criticism from the FSC and the Isle of Man government and in trying to maintain the island's revenue from banking"

...all of which in my mind point to a MASSIVE incentive for them to reach some sort of commercial deal whereby depositors do not lose out, causing a loss of confidence. But I haven't had much contact with the FSC directly, so I do take what you are saying onboard.


covering their own backs ...

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 16:24

"...all of which in my mind point to a MASSIVE incentive for them to reach some sort of commercial deal whereby depositors do not lose out, causing a loss of confidence"

Are you speaking of a commercial deal in which the present bank is acquired for the pupose of paying sums of money to former depositors? How interesting a business proposition do you think that is likely to be for a prospective buyer? What exactly is in it for the acquiring corporation?

I agree that it would be just lovely for the IoM government if some bank were to come along and offer to pay for the privilege of paying out even more money to former depositors so they can promptly remove their deposits, but is that not somewhat less likely than my Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander bank statements spontaneously transmuting into bars of gold?


Potentially, lots

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 17:26

"Are you speaking of a commercial deal in which the present bank is acquired for the pupose of paying sums of money to former depositors? How interesting a business proposition do you think that is likely to be for a prospective buyer? What exactly is in it for the acquiring corporation?"

Potentially, lots. From what we know KSFIOM itself was probably quite solvent until UK Govt froze KSFUK.
Assuming, and that's an admittedly big "IF", funds of KSFIOM can be unfrozen from KSFUK, what are we sitting on - a moderately large pile of cash.
The global money-markets are completely frozen, banks have debts to repay, what do they desperately need? An inflow of funds.
What do we (potentially) have? Funds looking for a home, possibly obtainable by them at rates much lower than they would get from the markets.
I could be completely wrong, I don't really understand all these things frankly, I'm just speculating...
But see ING buyout of Kaupthing Edge UK.


Potentially, lots

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:49

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here - it may be mine, I am not sure. My understanding is that no bank is ever going to buy the liabilities of KS&F, nor did they in the ING case as far as I am aware. The sums of money owed to depositors with KS&F are not an asset of the bank - they are a liability. In the ING case, as far as I know the acquiring bank was asked to place deposits with KS&F into ING accounts, but only because the deposited funds existed and could be redeposited in the new accounts or because the difference was made up by the UK government.

If the funds do still exist in the KS&F IOM, then they can be distributed by the liquidator to the bank's creditors and as far as I can see nothing would be gained by creditors if the funds are placed instead in accounts with another bank. If the funds do not exist, then it is inconceivable that another bank is going to offer to pay depositors out if its own funds. Therefore if a sale to another bank occurs, it can only be a sale of existing assets (whatever they are) and that will simply increase the sum of money in the liquidator's kitty that will eventually be distributed to creditors. An acquisition by another bank cannot mean, contrary to what is suggested above, that the acquiring bank is going to donate its own money just so that it can then be paid out to depositors.

In summary, unless I have completely misunderstood, depositors are either being misled about the consequences of an acsquisition by another bank or else they are misleading themselves. The position of KS&F (IOM) is not the same as that of the UK subsidiary - the former is being liquidated (or is about to be) and the latter was placed in administration and its deposits (that is money actually held by the bank, not the sums owed to depositors) was given to another bank to hold for depositors. I do not know whether there was any money being held by KS&F (IOM) when it collapsed (as opposed to money it owed to depositors), but if there was little or none left and if there is little that is owed to the bank that can be recovered by the liquidator, then there will be little in the kitty to pay creditors. The idea of the liquidation is to sell the assets of the bank and try to increase the kitty as much as possible, but the expectation that the liquidator could somehow find a bank that is willing to throw away its money in order to pay KS&F's debts in my view arises from a fundamental and total misunderstanding. However, I stand ready to be corrected if I am wrong.


BBC

  • JS
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 15:32

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7664853.stm

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 14:21

Have you seen this - on since this morning? We may come under the term " other bodies". A few words snipped from it - "... talks all weekend between (UK) Treasury delegation in Reykjavik and Icelandic govt....Britain is demanding the recovery of funds deposited by local councils, public bodies, cos. & charities in collapsed Icelandic banks.
Under Icelandic finacial regs. the govt. is supposed to pay up ( ONLY) GBP16,000 compensation at total cost of GBP2.2 Billion.....they...say they will work for a solution.
However...giving UK depositors their funds may depend on nloan from IMF.
They say they want to find a solution to the crisis to protect UK depositors and enable councils and OTHER BODIES with money at stake to recover it asap.
Private deposits with the collapse KSF ( ie in UK)... have been sold to INGdirect where accounts should operate as normal....
Councils had GBP842.5 million and charities with GBP120 million( in this bank)"


Note posted on the Actions Taken forum

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 13:07

All - please read my note on the "Actions Taken" forum titled "EXPAT and our strategy". Thanks.


http://www.manxradio.com/readNEwsItem.aspx?id=26682

  • Last Bel
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 11:52

A former Treasury Minister is demanding clarification of issues relating to the new Depositors' Compensation Scheme, approved by Tynwald at an emergency sitting on Thursday.

Michael MHK David Cannan (pictured) wants Allan Bell, the man who currently holds the position, to confirm that three separate matters will be brought to the Court for approval, at the sitting on October 21.

He says if Mr Bell can't provide the required assurances by the Friday before the sitting, a member of Tynwald will have to move a motion of urgent public importance.

Mr Cannan wants a firm commitment that the new protection scheme - with its maximum payout of £50,000 - will apply to depositors with Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited.

He says the chief executive of the Financial Supervision Commission said this would be the case, at the creditors' meeting at the Gaiety Theatre on Thursday.

He is also concerned that the amended list of 'Eligible Protected Deposits' for the new scheme includes charities, family trusts and incorporated family trusts, funds placed in 'clients accounts', and small businesses with a limited turnover and number of employees.

Finally, he is seeking confirmation compensation payments would be made within six months.

Yesterday the Financial Supervision Commission confirmed the new scheme would apply for any compensation payments made to Kaupthing customers in the Isle of Man.


Proposal

  • Kev
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 11:41

I am also happy with a lock in assuming the interest rate is competitive, or even a bit below, giving the new owners some additional margin to save our situation.

Well done on the organisers of this site, great work. It's really comforting to know that others are in the same boat, and it appears that we have some really good people on our side to lead the fight. I'm still hopeful of a positive outcome for all.


keep it - then allow access

  • sambururob
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Online Now
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 11:28

If ING, Santander, HSBC or anyone want to take over the deposits I am quite happy for them to insist they keep them for a minimum period(say, one year or two) as long as I know they will give me access to the full amount after the period....and pay the going rate of interest. 279,000 sterling guaranteed deposit is surely an offer ING would go for....and they can make it internet banking only if that helps them.
Desperate times call for desperate offers.
Anything is better than watch two generations of life savings disappear to sure up incompetent Icelandic bankers and politicians who are using our money to keep their domestic customers and constituents happy.


manx government

  • Sarah f
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 09:28

I was interested to read that the Manx Government were also ksf investors. "The Manx government was one of hundreds of investors in the collapsed bank.

The treasury said it had a number of short-term deposits and long-term investments with Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander.

A treasury spokesman said: "At this point we are still calculating the level of exposure and gathering information."

Kaupthing collapse: Q&A

The total amount is thought to be in the low millions, but Mr Brown said ordinary Manx savers were foremost in the government's mind. "

This was on the bbc website. At least that increases their incentive to act.


Locking in deposits

  • Thor Halland
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 09:22

I would be happy to have my deposit locked in for two years if another bank were to buy out KSF and I certainly don't want to rock the boat.


Copied from malew51 - MoneySupermarket thread (10/11)

  • manu_fr
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 09:00

Sorry to malew51 to copy and paste his/her post but I thought this was worth to share...

I was at the depositors meeting in Douglas, asked specifically about the process for obtaining compensation, and the following is the process for compensation as it was explained to us:

1. The new scheme approved by Tynwald on 9/10/08 has extended cover to £50,000 per depositor per banking licence. It currently only covers private individuals and not 'corporate entities', such as businesses, pension funds, charities. If you have a joint account, each person is counted separately (effectively £100,000 cover for the account).

2. The scheme must be 'triggered' for it to cover the bank. It has not yet been triggered for KS&F but it will be at the 24 October winding up hearing in court here on the Isle of Man (known as the 'event of default'). Thus it will be undertaken under the new scheme as it will happen after Tynwald approved the scheme. If the scheme is triggered, each depositor will be written to by the Liquidator, using your address registered with the bank. He will explain the process for receiving compensation. You do not need to apply now. Keep watching the Isle of Man news websites and especially the IOM government Financial Services Commission http://www.gov.im/fsc/

3. It is possible that all or part of KS&F may be sold to another bank. If this happens, I understand the accounts pass to that bank and all your deposit is covered by the new owner. This would be the best outcome and the compensation scheme would not need to be used.

4. As you say, the money for the compensation is raised by a levy on all the other banks. Raising the money could therefore take some time; in the old scheme it was years. No one can tell me how long the new scheme will take but one of our MHKs (parliamentary representatives) is demanding a maximum of 6 months to sort this out and many politicians recognise the need for a rapid response to restore confidence in our off-shore finance industry. I also stated this on Manx Radio. The levied banks get repaid from any seized assets. I have heard that staged payments may be made under the scheme.

5. The Chief Minister of the Isle of Man has asked the UK delegation to raise the island's money with Iceland. This is because the UK Government constitutionally represents the island, which is a Crown Dependency, in foreign affairs.

6. The other source of funding is London. It appears that the island depositors funds were in the London branch when the UK seized the assets and froze the company. The Liquidator, Mike Simpson of Pricewaterhouse Cooper, told the meeting that he has instructed a UK legal team to seek out our assets in London. Again, the time course is unknown.

We await developments. As others have pointed out in other forums, there is nothing to be gained at present by a high profile campaign internationally. This could be counterproductive to negotiating the sale; three companies have expressed interest. The depositors side of the business is a potentially valuable purchase, particularly if the assets in London are recovered, because the bank is said to have been completely solvent until actions in the UK and Iceland removed the assets.

Depositors abroad should know that there are many local people in the same situation and we are doing our very best to lobby the politicians on everyone's behalf. However, we must be patient because it will take several weeks for the situation to be fully clarified. I have called, via local media, for a full government enquiry into this event to learn the truth and stop anything like this happening again here.

My sympathy and best wishes to all.
Malew51 Post


Malew51

  • Emabroad
  • 10/10/08 30/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 18:17

Thanks for your post. Much appreciated to get a comprehensive picture of the latest news from IOM. Please continue to keep us informed. Somehow the UK, and its islands in particular, have never seemed so far away.


calling all investors in KS&F via Royal Skandia

  • Damo1979
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 08:50

Hi all
Worry times for all!!
I invested though Royal Skandia into KS&F IOM, could others who did the same email me directly as I want to pool together a list of investors via Skandia so we can use their investment powers to keep us informed on what is happening.
email me at skandiaKSF(?)hotmail [dot] co [dot] uk
I will collect email addresses and then I suggest we meet with Skandia soon to get some action from them.

Regards


http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-money/savings/2008/10/10/bad-new

  • madmax836
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 08:37

Re - Questions and Answers

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 02:48

Thanks very much fo that Matt. Does anyone see a glimmer of hope in the words "Events are moving rapidly..."?


Questions and Answers

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 02:26

From: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/fsc/PressReleases/kaupthingsingerqanda.pdf

    Q&As as at 10 October 2008

The answers here are drafted in general terms and do not constitute legal advice as to your situation. Events are moving rapidly and as more information becomes available some of these answers may be superseded. The Financial Supervision
Commission (“the Commission”) will publish updates through its website www.fsc.gov.im as more information becomes available.

What is the current status of KSF (IOM)?
On the evening of 8 October, following consultation with the Commission, the Board of KSF (IOM) resolved that it should apply for the company to be wound up. At that point KSF (IOM) stopped trading and the Commission suspended KSF’s
banking licence. On the morning of 9 October, a joint petition was presented to the High Court by KSF (IOM) and the Commission for the appointment of a “liquidator provisionally”.
Michael Simpson of Pricewaterhouse Coopers, 60 Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA was appointed by the Court.

Does that mean that KSF (IOM) will be wound up?
The process is not automatic. Winding-up would require a separate order of the Court, at which point a liquidator would be appointed. The petition for winding-up has been adjourned to 24 October.

KSF told me that it had received a guarantee from the Icelandic parent bank Kaupthing hf. How could it fail?
There has been extensive media comment on the status of Icelandic banks and the state of the Icelandic economy, which may have affected Kaupthing hf’s ability to honour the guarantee. The Chief Minister has issued a statement on this matter which can be found on our website. The UK Government has issued an announcement at the HM Treasury website (hm-treasury.gov.uk) dated 9 October:
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_103_08.htm

The “liquidator provisionally” has indicated at a public meeting that there had been expressions of interest from potential buyers for some or all of KSF’s business.
What are the prospects of this?
It is too early to tell. However, if the “liquidator provisionally” was to receive an offer which he regarded as commercially acceptable, the Commission would of course address its regulatory acceptability as a matter of urgency.

I gave instructions for my money to be transferred out of KSF (IOM) but it has not arrived. How do I find out what has happened?
This is a matter for the “liquidator provisionally” to address. You should write to Michael Simpson of Pricewaterhouse Coopers, 60 Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA.

I have recently changed address and do not know if KSF(IOM) has updated its records. To whom should I write?
You should write to the “liquidator provisionally”. Michael Simpson of Pricewaterhouse Coopers, 60 Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA. It might be helpful to enclose supporting evidence of the old and new address.

I have savings in KSF. What will happen if it is wound up?
Two main things would happen:
1. The liquidator would set out to establish who has a claim as a creditor and to recover assets to meet their claims (in whole or in part);
2. The Depositors Compensation Scheme (“DCS”) would take effect, following a meeting of the Scheme Manager, which determined that an event of default had occurred.

The Compensation of Depositors Regulations set a level of coverage for individuals who have deposits. The current Regulations passed on 9 October and a description of the DCS are both on the Commission’s website.

At a meeting of Tynwald on 9 October the Treasury Minister indicated that the Regulations might be subject to amendment. The Commission is presently advised that, if the DCS were to be triggered in respect of KSF (IOM), it would be subject to the Regulations in force when the event of default was declared. At the time of writing (10 October) an event of default has not yet been declared.

If KSF (IOM) was wound up and an event of default was declared, you should expect
to be contacted by the liquidator and the DCS manager.

Will I get my money back immediately?
There will be a delay while claims are established. Please see the description of the DCS on the Commission’s website.

We have a joint account. Would we each have a claim on the DCS?
Joint account holders are treated separately. For more details, please see the description of the DCS on the Commission’s website.

I have an insurance bond which is invested with KSF(IOM). Would the DCS apply to it?
The position would be determined in accordance with the Regulations in force at the time that an event of default was declared by the DCS manager.


What are Edge retail deposits?

  • mrken30
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 01:42

This has been put up on KSF UK website, not sure if it is relevant. I was resident in the UK , unknowingly thinking my money would be safe in the IOM bank and not realising there was a UK branc managing the transactions.

The deposits of Edge retail depositors are safe and have been legally transferred by the Treasury to ING Direct, a wholly-owned subsidiary of ING Group, which will operate the accounts from its UK branch. Edge retail depositor’s money is safe and secure. The Financial Services Compensation Scheme and the Treasury will provide funds to ING Direct, to back these retail deposits in full.


This is the e-mail i got from

  • sad
  • 10/10/08 31/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 01:42

This is the e-mail i got from mike simpson...

Hi Helena

As a depositor in the bank, you have a claim in the liquidation for the amount of your deposit. You do not need to do anything regarding your claim at this stage.

Regards

Mike
Mike Simpson | Partner | PwC| Sixty Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA
Telephone +44 (0) 1624 689689 | Fax +44 (0) 1624


Fax No

  • Olivia 93
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 04:25

Helena Can you complete the fax no? Thanks


mike simpson contact details

  • sad
  • 10/10/08 31/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 08:10

Hi Helena

As a depositor in the bank, you have a claim in the liquidation for the amount of your deposit. You do not need to do anything regarding your claim at this stage.

Regards

Mike
Mike Simpson | Partner | PwC| Sixty Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA
Telephone +44 (0) 1624 689689 | Fax +44 (0) 1624 689690
mike [dot] simpson(?)iom [dot] pwc [dot] com


Claim process

  • Floyd
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 01:38

Is anyone aware if the process for registering claims begun yet? If so, please provide the web link providing this information.


Lets give peace a chance

  • Anonymous
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 00:20

Ok folk. I have been in some contact with people on the IoM and have been persuaded that there are business level discussions happening over the weekend in Douglas.

I am also fully aware that if we continue to maximise publicity over this, as we have been seeking to do, then it may jeapodise these negotiations. At the time of writing this I have no firm proof and no evidence that these negotiations could result in the 100% return of our savings.

However, i am personally willing to give some breathing space to these business nogotiations to allow them take place without the specture of imminent collapse.

I would therfore humbly - and i hope that no-one thinks i have ulterior motives, i am too simple for that - ask everyone to bite the bullet and just rest over this weekend. I think we have made our point, now lets see if it works.

Mat Walker


Mat you have to give us more

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 00:36

Mat you have to give us more than that?!!

This is like the 'illuminata'

We are all on damage control here and any rescue plan welcome. Why would tempering our potential initiation of our own affront harbor this 'cloak and dagger affair'?? I have served in business for some years and am concerned we are being co-coerced for the sake of preservation of other fiscal institutes in IoM that will not benefit us.


...more is needed

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 04:56

Sleeplesnight I agree - stakes are too high and most of us have had prior assurances prove wothless - my proposal is to have someone physically part of these discussions - Occamsrazor or Matt - expences charged back to the action group. Meanwhile media guns need to be primed for plan B


O Tempora, O Mores

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 23:20

Sorry to take a while all. Been fielding calls from various news companies. Shame none have offered £161K for my story :-)

Yes, i'll add a 'Meeting' tab to discuss a possible meeting. However, i would unfortunatley not be able to attend. Having problems finding an extra 10c for the bus into town - let alone a flight/hotel/food in the UK.

Anyway. The main issue as i see it (having have a read through the posts) is that some folks are saying that we could be jepodising our case by making a lot of noise. I take this wholly onboard, but everyone has a point and their arguments are entirley valid;

Keep quiet -
By keeping quiet and not making a noise about this there is less risk that the IOM finance sector will collapse and a greater chance for payback.

Make a lot of noise -
Alot of ordinary, financially unreckless, British citizens stand to have lost their lifes savings. It is evident that the standard compensation scheme in IOM is not fit for purpose and never was. Only need to look at BCCI. Therefore our only hope is to ensure polititions are made very aware that this is a now issue, will not go away and must be addressed properly and correctly. Now.

As i see it (i can be shouted down here, as most of this is spoken from the heart not the head) these are the two sides to the story. Both are valid.

My view is much simpler. I have lost £161K through no fault of my own and currently have no idea how next months rent will be paid. I dont want other families to have to face this and so just want to ensure they are forwarned. It is a simplistic and possibly defeatist attitude but I dont, and have never, played games. Especially with peoples livelihoods and lifes saving. For right or wrong i prefer to just stick with the truth and tell it as it is. If the authorities/fat-cats want us to shutup then the solution is simple; give us OUR money back. Not 10% over the next 25 years with cheques for £15, 100% right now.

As mentioned above most of this is from the heart. So i am open listening.

Mat


Mat I agree with your

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 23:45

Mat I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, and since EXPAT has not installed any confidence in you lets go ahead and arrange the meeting and lets try to raise the funds between us to get you here (provided it is uk),as I feel you are a centralized voice and we could get quantifiable press attention. Please stay with the forum at any hour you can to keep confidence in it united - unless someone comes forward to purchase liabilities from Administrator as going concern we are all shafted so let's give them something to consider before the maximum time for petition is up to apply as a consideration here.

WE NEED TO BE IN CONTROL OF OUR FINANCIAL DESTINY AND NOT LEAVE IT TO BUREAUCRATS SO PLEASE BE ACTIVE TO RESPOND. DON'T REGRET THIS OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING, AS WE ALL DO I NOT GETTING OUR MONEY OUT IN TIME BEFORE IT HAS FALLEN TO THE ABYSS OF ICELAND UK POLITICAL DEBATE

ALLre: EXPAT
i do not understand the active rush to set up this website and the many postings on other forums and now everybody has gone quiet. Surely nobody believes that the victims of this crisis can affect any takeover bid or proposals to the UK Gov for assurance from the IoM Gov by discussing the situation aloud on the forum? As somebody rightly pointed out we are only a small representation of the fiscal proportion of interests (remember there are consortiums with millions at stake) but the common voice is that which will move both Govts to appease us.

I have experience in 'Administration' issues and a proposed Administration rather than takeover would obviously be preferable to us all as I wholly doubt the coffers to have enough to cover a drop of what we have lost, and it is true that some businesses born from administration can sink as soon as launched due to panic and adverse talk BUT we were generating good ideas between us, particularly that of us co-operating to endorse the scheme of fixed term on all our deposits to make an administrative purchase more favorable (especially to IoM Gov.) now that has ceased entirely it seems?

Please those interested in this option reiterate interest. This would not harm any possible merger, takeover or likewise.

We have all come to this website to source solutions any empathy.


The Meeting

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 07:56

Provided the meeting is sensible, structured with a clear set of messages and not a shouting match - then it can only be positive and powerful.

We need maximum media exposure.

Emphasize strongly the personal devastation - with personal stories.
If possible a legal opinion stated by a professional at the meeting - particular since we will have the media podium.

Requests would include:

IOM commitment
UK Govt Commitment

Suggest a pre-meeeting prior to opening the debate with the media.

Comments?


The Meeting

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 07:50

Provided the meeting is sensible, structured with a clear set of messages and not a shouting match - then it can only be positive and powerful.

We need maximum media exposure.

Enphasis strongly the personal devastation.
Explain that we are open to dialogue with possible suiters.
If possible a legal opinion stated by a professional at the meeting - particular since we will have the media podium.

Requests would include:

IOM commitment viz UK and Iceland and C100% ompensation.
UK Govt Commitment viz Iceland

Suggest a pre-meeeting prior to opening the debate with the media to iron out the delivery.

Comments.


Tubefly - agreed. The

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 09:03

Tubefly - agreed. The purpose of the meeting needs to be primarily to raise media awareness of our situation so we would be aiming to ensure media would attend and notable Gov representative of IoM or/and UK as the foreign policy remit means UK must represent IoM. Focus on the human story.

I agree we need a pre meeting to set out agenda and discuss priorities including those you have mentioned and additionally timescales, co-ordinating evidence and facts with regard to our correspondence and terms with KSFIoM and the presence of a legal representative to give guidance and I also agree it would be good to accept the presence of the KSFIoM counterpart as discussed earlier.

Obviously we are all hoping for a purchaser to come along and save us as has happened with other institutes, but if we are talking about 'liquidation' as opposed to 'administration' the liquidators responsibility to treat no one creditor as preferential applies after they have taken their chunk of huge fees for what is going to be a very long winded and complex case. It is a small point, but I think one of our focus needs to be that if we are reliant only on the ioM compensation scheme that any remaining funds be solely directed to depositors and that the liquidators fees be settled elsewhere. Every penny counts!

I agree with Matt that we wait to see if there is any outcome from the EXPAT intimations before spending any money we haven't got on travel costs, and keep our fingers crossed that it is a genuine lead.


SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOLKS - SO WHO IS TO BLAME?

  • FROZENFUNDS
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 23:03

From tonights Evening Standard - Chris Blackhurst, City Editor
There is nothing in Iceland. I know, I've been there. It's a bleak, desolate,spectacular place. Reykjavik, its capital is about as big as Scunthorpe. Yet more than 100 local councils and police authorities thought they should deposit £1Billion of taxpayers money there. British companies supposed it was OK to put £12billion of their cash in the country's banks while individual savers had deposited £6billion in Icelandic accounts. But any cursory visit like the one I made in May would have told them they were mad and stupid. As we trvelled to our hotel we looked at each other in amazement. We were laughing. Put simply, the country is an almighty con. The idea that this sparsely populated island had an economy capable of underwriting its banks deposits was absurd. It was if a massive joke was being played on London and the rest of the financial world. This was May and already investors around the globe had woken up to the reality of this lump of lava in the northern sea and were getting out. Local interest rates were shooting up, to 15% and the krona had fallen 20 per cent. The oldest City adage of all is that if anything is too good to be true it usually is and that is certainly the case where Iceland is concerned. But equally human nature never ceases to amaze. Even putting aside the fact that anyone might wonder how this tiny nation could repay everyone's cash, there were red danger signals flashing all over. Yes, mock the savers who thought Iceland was a safe haven but nobody told them any different - and that is where the blame really lies.


John Cashen - From FSC website

  • Singapore
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:29

'Antagonsim' would not be the word I'd use at this point...but certainly a little leverage can be applied. We need all the insight & assitance we can get at this point. With current directoships listed as - Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited - Kaupthing Holdings (IOM) Limited - Singer & Friedlander International Limited - Singer & Friedlander Investment Management (IOM) Limited - he's a valuable individual & player in this entire tragedy.


absolutely agree. In my

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:38

absolutely agree. In my experience of working with and in liquidation and administration issues there are always unclear points that never get ironed out because the directors omit the min their final statements to cover backs or to leave with the best assets/fringe benefits - to have somebody in the loop passing us knowledge is priceless (as our our savings right now!!) its the old adage "can't beat em join em" in reverse!


IOM FSC - Current Directorships

  • Singapore
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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Who is who in the FSC of the IoM

  • Singapore
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:00

Very intersting and completely overlooked messge has been posted on Moneysupermarket.com by malew51. Would Expat or somebody else with contacts be able to shed some light on that character, Mr Cashen?

And how many other members of the FSC may have similar conflicts of interest?

Here is malew51's posting:

"Interesting information for KS&F (IOM) depositors: At the meeting in Douglas the regulators, the Financial Services Commission were represented by their Director. Many of us wondered how the crisis in Icelandic Banks could pass them by. Well I can reveal that the Deputy Director of the Financial Services Commission is John Cashen and, on the FSC website he declares the following directorships as 'conflicts of interest':

Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited
Kaupthing Holdings (IOM) Limited

Notice anything? I wonder who took their money out in time?"


I really don't see that's an

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:21

I really don't see that's an issue. IoM is a small place and everyone there probably works at one bank or the other. No one on the island has an interest in KSF(IoM) failing, and I don't see any point in antagonising him. From what I've read KSF staff there were told the parent would guarantee things right up to the last minute. Have you considered it could actually be a good thing to have someone with real knowledge of KSF on the FSC who will be handling our case? I know we are all frustrated but I don't think this is the right track to go down....


John Cashen - From FSC website

  • Singapore
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 21:58

Mr John Cashen OBE (Deputy Chairman)

2e2 (IOM) Limited
Century Management Limited
Fortress Management Services Limited
Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited
Kaupthing Holdings (IOM) Limited
Marriott (Isle of Man) Limited
Singer & Friedlander International Limited
Singer & Friedlander Investment Management (IOM) Limited


Post for kiwi38

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:07

I am posting this for kiwi38 from moneysupermaket forum.

He is still trying to register on our site, and now I see Matt is up and running he should get in shortly.

Quote............................................................

Just wanted to give an analogy re the UK Govt role in this mess as it seems many are hoping for some sort of charity from them to sort this out. They are culpible in this mess and must act:

If a person intentionally pushes someone else off a wobbling pile of blocks and they die then that is murder. The UK Govt pushed all KSF IOM investors off the shaky pile of blocks called KSF IOM by freezing the assets of KaupthingUK - they murdered our savings. Without their action we may have survived. I know this was done with good intentions to protect the KaupthingUK investors but the KSF IOM investors cannot be forgotten and written off as collateral damage. The UK Government have played a key role in this collapse and must now stand over the mess.

.....unquote

PS: Many thanks Matt for setting up this site and keeping it going........Cheers


I think we need to start by

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 21:08

I think we need to start by organizing a physical meeting of us all so we can establish genuine participants. I would be willing to travel but obviously UK central would be good start. I mentioned this last night and particularly to the guy that posted the idea. (apologies will try and source his name from earlier postings) . Maybe we could arrange conference calls/web cam participation for those in other countries with a rep taking part for each. We really need Matt Walker and the gentleman who suggested the proposal back in action so they can set up another tab on this site to verify the interest in this and as names that we are all watching on this forum. We cannot be negative about UK and IoM Gov support for us because it has been realized for other investors of other banks with the underpinning hope that long term deposits outweigh short term, ie there may not be the actual bulk of cash there but the interest and contemplated withdrawals is achievable. Obviously for Administration to go ahead liquidity would have to be proved... but why then would ING not step up as they have done in the UK?


O tempora, o mores

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 23:10

Sorry to take a while all. Been fielding calls from various news companies. Shame none have offered £161K for my story :-)

Yes, i'll add a 'Meeting' tab to discuss this.

Everyone has a point and their arguments are entirley valid;

Keep quiet -
By keeping quiet and not making a noise about this there is less risk that the IOM finance sector will collapse and a greater chance for payback.

Make a lot of noise -
Alot of ordinary, financially unreckless, British citizens stand to have lost their lifes savings. It is evident that the standard compensation scheme in IOM is not fit for purpose and never was. Only need to look at BCCI. Therefore our only hope is to ensure polititions are made very aware that this is a now issue, will not go away and must be addressed properly and correctly. Now.

As i see it (i can be shouted down here, as most of this is spoken from the heart not the head) these are the two sides to the story. Both are valid.

My view is much simpler. I have lost £161K through no fault of my own and currently have no idea how next months rent will be paid. I dont want other families to have to face this and so just want to ensure they are forwarned. It is a simplistic and possibly defeatist attitude but I dont, and have never, played games. Especially with peoples livelihoods and lifes saving. For right or wrong i prefer to just stick with the truth and tell it as it is.

As mentioned above most of this is from the heart. So i am open listening.

Mat


Monies and client base

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 21:05

Not adding anything really but going through things again - £83>86m deposits @ KE IoM. Based on the amounts folks have posted that would only put the client base at around 250 > 300 with no real high worth individuals. apologies to the chap who's £5.5m down - but I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from
For a bank both these figures to me now look very small - how many staff in IoM to service these acounts???

£830 > £860 m with a client base of a few thousand and a good spread of deposits from a few hundred to several mill would sound more like it...

Just my thoughts not really based on anything


Completely agree Skintag. I

  • barbados
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 21:10

Completely agree Skintag. I don't want to go into the detail about institutions on this site as it wouldn't be fair on them as they too have been caught up in this terrible mess, but there will be several hundred million invested in te IOM office.


86 million to keep the

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 21:23

86 million to keep the integrity and name of the IOM banking business, seems a small price to me, im sure that been considered.
Dont know what GDP of IOM is but, there a 40 banks on the island, 2 million a piece, maybe im wrong, im tired, angry, ill, and distraught....maybe its time to try and get some sleep with a view to thinking clearer tomorrow.
Whats going through my mind would put many a conspiracy tehorist to shame lol
Expat could be anyone (wind up merchant, account holder, IOM banker, IOM politician, journalist), who knows, but what he has said has shut everyone up.


my thoughts exactly but he

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 01:09

my thoughts exactly but he also went quiet when questioned. those in powerful position are posed no risk by our little forum so I assume, sadly, he was some wind up merchant/sicko


83>86 m come on that's

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 10/10/2008 - 22:12

83>86 m come on that's chicken feed in the real world possibly that in tangible liquid assets - I can't believe that's the total deposited funds of KE IoM
as a project manager I was looking after £6>10 + m / annum our finance team were handling in the £000's mill / annum