General Discussions

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
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Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 05:39

Any general chat about what is going on that doesn't fall into any other categories.

IMPORTANT: How to post links to related News on other sites

As of 21/Oct/08 we have a searchable news archive. Site editors (and anybody else who wants to help) now have the mammoth task of find and re-posting all relevant links that were posted in forums and re-posting as a news item into the archive.

It would be appreciated if you didn't make the task even bigger than it currently is.

Please post news items using the Create new News item link near top of right side-bar.

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Tax Havens Told

  • dclf1947
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 29/10/2009 - 11:13

Morbid Talk

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 25/10/2009 - 14:36

Can anyone clarify:

With the whole process stretching out further and further by the month witha now 2017 predicted finsh date (sure that will lengthen) does anyone know what the position is with wills (due to the age of a lot of depositors)
Will will made in the UK be enforcable or do we need to consider something else?


Creditors rights in the event of death

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Mon, 26/10/2009 - 17:29

Monkeyface3604 - good question sadly one some of us will probably face.

On you main point I'm not offering legal advice but based on based on UK law the right of the creditor is a right that can be passed by will or probate. So you can specifiy who the benefiicary of this money is as with any other asset. This is something that you should mention to the lawyer and executors when making a will.


Kaupthing loses claim against British government

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 22/10/2009 - 09:51

Excellent article at Icenews.is. Would somebody post it please.


Icenews: Kaupthing loses claim

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Thu, 22/10/2009 - 10:45

The much-talked-about EUR 500 million from the Central Bank of Iceland to Kaupthing shortly before the latter bank collapsed did not (for the most part) go to the UK and into Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander. This is one of the findings of the High Court case in London brought by Kaupthing against the British government. It is interesting to note, according to Visir.is, that the court ruling implies that if the loan had been used to support KS&F, the fall of Kaupthing might have been avoided.

It is clear that the British government’s forced closure of Singer & Friedlander was the last nail in the Kaupthing coffin during the eventful first days of October last year. After this, the company was doomed.

The court ruling pointed out that the UK financial regulator, the FSA and Kaupthing negotiators reached an agreement after exhaustive negotiations on 4-5 October 2008 that Kaupthing would increase Singer & Friedlander’s cash position in stages. The FSA did inform Her Majesty’s Treasury (the UK finance ministry) of this decision.

The EUR 500 million loans from the Central Bank of Iceland came on 6th October. The day before (5th), Kaupthing had promised to pump GBP 186 million into KS&F (around half the loan value) on the 7th October. In reality, only GBP 36 million ended up in London. As previously reported by Visir, the FSA believed that the additional GBP 150 million had been frozen by the Central Bank of Iceland.

But according to other sources, this was not true. Visir.is reports that the entire loan was paid out; but that Kaupthing used the money to shore up its operations elsewhere in Europe. Among others, a portion of the funds went to Sweden and another chunk was used to save Kaupthing Edge in Germany. This comes as a surprise because Kaupthing managers themselves pointed out that Singer & Friedlander would be the key to the bank’s survival.

The nationalisation of Glitnir Bank is also mentioned in the High Court ruling and the strong negative effect it had on trust in the entire Icelandic banking system.

On the day after Glitnir’s nationalisation, on the 30th September, GBP 37 million was taken out of Kaupthing Edge bank accounts in the UK. This massive withdrawal triggered a ‘code red’ on the state of Singer & Friedlander. In response, Singer & Friedlander announced it would increase its funding from Kaupthing by an additional GBP 1.1 billion; but the mother company could not provide such funding.

The FSA later agreed to accept GBP 1.25 billion in smaller chunks, as stated above.

It was at this time that Kaupthing made desperate attempts to sell S&F to JC Flowers. The negotiations failed partly because Kaupthing promised the FSA it would transfer GBP 175 million “within hours” on the 7th October. The funds, however, never arrived.

On the 8th October, the FSA learned of the failed JC Flowers deal, but accepted Kaupthing’s new promise to send GBP 300 million; but that too never arrived. By this time, the patience of the British government was exhausted and later that day the government decided to take over Singer & Friedlander and transfer all its assets to ING Direct in the Netherlands before it fully collapsed.

This timeline of developments seems to be accurate and is backed up by documentation presented during the High Court hearing. However, during the entire process last autumn, Kaupthing leaders were assuring the world the bank’s overall liquidity was strong and the chances of collapse were extremely remote.


Radio 4. Analysis.

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 13/10/2009 - 06:44

If you have time, use your iplayer to listen to the above, the current subject is "Small states". There is a particular interest shown to Iceland & how , & why it it fell into difficulties. It won't help you get any money back though.


IPLAYERS

  • conned
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 13/10/2009 - 07:50

Unfortunately Iplayers do not work outside of the UK. Wish they did.


If you go to iTunes you may

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 06/11/2009 - 18:10

If you go to iTunes you may find a podcast you can download, I used it for years in Russia to get news.


iplayers @ conned

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 13/10/2009 - 11:37

I'm in France & it works for me! Not the tv just the radio, which this is.


Iceland looks to serve the world

  • Yorkie
  • 13/10/08 10/12/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 11/10/2009 - 19:28

Could this idea be bigger and better than their last one?

I find this statement rather worrying:

"banks for example, need hundreds of thousands of servers to store all their data"

Gulp!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/8297237.stm


Very Important

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 02/10/2009 - 07:45

I can't. Would somebody please post the article on PWC & KMPG in the business section of the Daily Telegraph. Thank you.


I have look at blog section

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 02/10/2009 - 08:07

I have look at blog section please


Could Kaupthing Edge be the next Rock?

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 23/09/2009 - 11:15

Just type that into Google. A question asked 22 Feb 2008. Where were we?


SFO believe Iceland may hold JJB clues.

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 23/09/2009 - 11:03

To be found with many other relevant articles on thisismoney.com?


Iceland skating on thin ice? April 2008

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 23/09/2009 - 10:50

An article we all missed! By Thorvaldur Gylfason, to be found at voxeu.org. There's another titled Iceland's blend of old & new. Pity the Manx Herald didn't give these some publicity at the time.


The Australian news article

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 23/09/2009 - 10:31

posted by JS is worth reading. It mentions a negative IMF Report on Iceland in 2006. I will try to find this. Also Robert Wade from the LSE was an early whistleblower, does anyone have information on this.
I will go Googling & see what I can trawl up.


Early John Wade article on Iceland

  • glen07
  • 21/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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MY quite mild "Comment" under John Wade's article has been delet

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Mon, 12/10/2009 - 08:54

My quite mild "Comment" has been deleted on FT - all I said was about the Derbyshire selling IOM branch to an Icelandic bank and how the money was lost because it was transferred to UK and that the IOM compensation scheme was actually depositor's money anyway acquired by liquidator - PLEASE someone else try to make a comment asap. My comment was showing earlier - but now it is not.


Comment on FT

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 12/10/2009 - 10:03

I have posted a comment - hope it comes up. Despite registering though, I don't see how to read other comments?


all comments being deleted from John Wade article

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Mon, 12/10/2009 - 10:08

No comments are showing up under this article now - Sorry!


John Wade's article in FT - no mention of Derbyshire

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 12/10/2009 - 06:33

Hope you have time to read this article and maybe someone cleverer than me can post a comment. He gives 8 reasons as to why anyone in their right minds would not have put money into Icelandic banks. I was with the Derbyshire for several years - why did they not heed the signs about Iceland?


Today's article in the Telegraph

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 08/09/2009 - 11:19

finance section needs posting please. Maybe I'll go for IT lessons now.


what article is this?

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 08/09/2009 - 11:33

Can you post the heading onf the article?


The telegraph article has now been pulled!

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 08/09/2009 - 15:22

Pressure from Guernsey or IoM I guess.


@amy --- Telegraph article

  • burns284
  • 19/04/09 30/11/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 08/09/2009 - 16:36

Were you perhaps referring to this article about Landsbanki Guernsey, entitled "Iceland's customers still out in the cold" published on 3rd September ? (Yes, I know that today is not 3rd Sep.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/61319...


@burns 284

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 09/09/2009 - 05:13

Yes, thank you that is the one. I hadn't noticed the date. I wonder why it hasn't made it to the Iceland dossier of articles? Read the comments if you have time.


Eva Joly will take 5 years

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 01/09/2009 - 15:39

to complete her enquiry! So says Iris Erlingsdottir on her blog, where there are several excellent pieces.
www.huffingtonpost.com/iris-lee/ or www.twitter.com/elluskott
If you could post them for others I would be grateful.


icelandtalks.net

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 28/08/2009 - 07:54

Another site worth visiting, lots of relevant articles.


iceland review.com

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 27/08/2009 - 14:02

Have three interesting articles.

Special Prosecutor & Europol discuss cooperation.

Owners of 70 Icelandic offshore companies unknown.

Icelandic state to sue "Outvasion Vikings"

Pity I don't know how to post them on the newsink.


@icelandreview.com

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 27/08/2009 - 16:39

Thanks for these arny. I've posted the first and last as news items.

For future reference (!), it's quite easy to do: just click on Write: News at top right of screen and complete the form provided (you can copy and paste the various items).


The first book on Kaupthing

  • arny
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 22/08/2009 - 16:29

Why Iceland? Written by Dr. Asgeir Jonsson, chief economist at Kaupthing. Now available at Amazon USA $15. Includes details of a meeting of hedge fund managers on the island that is now being investigated.


What's happening please?

  • chb
  • 10/10/08 15/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 20/08/2009 - 20:25

Could I kindly ask a representative of the DST to provide a brief update on things please? News on the CC, Simpson's views on the estimated timing and amount of first dividend, actions underway or planned, any shred of info about ANYTHING would be welcome. Excuse me if I've missed something along these lines in the past few weeks.

Thank you


CHB, Where is the money?

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 10:06

I must agree with you with respect to news. i appreciate that everyone is working hard. However there was mention that PwC had to make regular updates as part of there agreement to remain liquidators. The last news i had re payments(over a month ago) was that KSF UK would be paying out 20% by end of july and we could expect the first payment (either 14.5% or + the KSF money) by the end of august.

We left July long ago and are near to the end of august and in this case no news is bad news. Does anyone know when the first payout is? What will it be?

I appreciate all the other news but we are in this to get the money back and the fact that the dates have drifted and PwC inaction, seems to have gone past without comment.

John


News from PWC

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 11:19

JUST posted by the Liquidators on the KSF website here http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/Pages/4152

"20 August 09

First distribution

The Joint Liquidators will shortly be paying the first distribution to unsecured creditors. Based on cash currently in hand, the first distribution would be 22.1 pence in the pound. However, during the course of the next two weeks, further material receipts of cash are expected which, if received, would increase the distribution further.

In order to ensure that the first distribution is as large as possible, it has been agreed with the Committee of Inspection that the distribution will be paid on Friday 4 September 2009. A further announcement will be made on this website when the level of the first distribution has been finalised, and a further update on the progress of the liquidation will be made on this website in the next few days."

PS This is the first news since some time; the DST has no special access to PWC information...


The 22.1 % Payout..........Early payout equation ?

  • chipmunk
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 11:04

Will this be a clear 22.1% payout on the amount deposited or does the initial £ 10K early payout come into the equation..............??


The 22.1 % Payout..........Early payout equation ?

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 17:30

Your EPS1 and EPS2 payments will first be met out of the dividend and only the balance paid to you by the liquidators. If you have (also) claimed DCS and not yet been (fully) paid your DCS entitlement at the time that the dividend is paid, then the whole of the dividend will be paid to the FSC (the administrators of the DCS) and the full entitlement under the DCS will be paid to you and any surviving balance will be repaid to you within (hopefully) a week or two. At least, that is my understanding.


the 22.1% payout

  • edelweiss
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 18:47

Elgee many thanks for the information.Also I have a query that maybe tou or someone can answer
I am a joint depositer the DCS would pay each of us 50000 (we have over 100000 in KSFIOM)
In liquidators payout of 22.1% does this mean we would both get 22.1% of our original deposit
or 22.1% dived by 2 ? I would be grateful for some clarity on this point.


the 22.1% payout

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 19:19

If I am not mistaken, you would receive 22.1% (actually I think it will in fact be a higher percentage) of the sum outstanding to your joint account when the bank collapsed shared between both of you, less £100,000 that you have claimed jointly in the DCS, or to be exact the FSC will receive on your behalf and transfer to you (or if that produces a negative number, just the £100,000 at this juncture in time). Podather can confirm or refute this.


The 22.1% Payout ...... Early Payout equation.

  • podather
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 18:04

Any monies you have already received under either EPS scheme will be deducted from this payout.
If you have claimed DCS your dividend will be paid to them and they will pay you.
You will receive either the £50,000 (less EPS) or the dividend (less EPS) whichever is the greater.

If you claim DCS but are not fully compensated by it and £50,000 is greater than this dividend by value you will not receive any further payments until the time the dividend declared for all creditors exceed the percentage to which the DCS fulfilled your claim.

IE: £100,000 deposit , £50,000 DCS payout = 50% of claim
22.1% Dividend, no further payout until future dividends exceed 50p in the £
So after the DCS you may be waiting a number of years until you receive the next payout.


deductions

  • ajrj
  • 09/11/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 21:19

hi,
i was on the phone to ksf iom last week and was led to believe by one of the staff that any eps payments made to me would NOT be deducted from the first dividend, and not subsequently taken till we had received 80 + P IN THE POUND
Any weight to this, as i initially applied for dcs but changed my mind , and am looking forward to the first divi. i have around 138k tied up, but dont want iom to have any control of my finances

aj


@ajrj - deductions for EPS

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 24/08/2009 - 10:22

ajrj: I think you have been misinformed (as I too have been in the past by those manning the ksf phone line!).

PWC's official report here http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=20332 (section 4.2) seems quite clear on this:

"The Treasury under [EPS] schemes 1 and 2 ..... has taken an assignment of rights in relation to the amounts paid. The JPL's have recently been provided with details of those payments from the Treasury. The Treasury stands in the shoes of those depositors up to the value of the amount paid and are paid first in respect of distributions to depositors who have received compensation under EPS1 and EPS2."


deductions

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 21:34

Airj: News to me. Sounds like something out of the SoA.


The 22.1% Payout ...... Early Payout equation.

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 18:20

Podather - thanks. I thought that was exactly what I had said above, but perhaps I did not make it very clear.

Your last paragraph just means that each depositor will receive no dividend payments until such time as the DCS has collected from the liquidators by way of dividend payments a sum equal to the amount that the depositor has been paid under the DCS.


less EP

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 23/08/2009 - 11:09

I would imagine that it would be less the 10k if you have taken it.
This will go to the IOMG


Great news

  • alec
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 12:32

Great news, thanks everyone !


confusion?

  • Ohdear
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 17:33

I tried to leave a message earlier but not sure if it got through so have a go again, apologies if it is repeated.

I thought we are getting 50000 as part of DCS in September so what difference this 22p the first payment is? I only say this because my understanding is that if we have applied to DCS then the first payment goes to the IOM anyway as part of pay back towards DCS? Or have I got this wrong?

Thanks for any clarifications.


OhDear's confusion

  • expatvictim
  • 10/10/08 01/11/10
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 18:36

OhDear,

It reallky depends on your circumstances as to whether this beneficial. The whole of the 22% from liquidation does not not go to the DCS only the pro rata amount for those depositors who have claimed under the DCS.

If you are 50k less and applied for the DCS then it makes little difference in terms of timing of repayment (you will get it all back very shortly)

If you applied for the DCS and had 227k (50/0.22) or less deposited all of your share of the 22% will indeed go to the DCS (they will then effectively pass it on to you as part of the 50k or the value of your deposit if less than 50k).

For anybody above 227k (who applied for the DCS) and for anybody who didnt apply for the DCS, then the 22% starts to make a difference - the more you have lost the more you will get back sooner. (Consider someone who has lost 1 million - they will be getting back 220k rather than 145k under the previous expected dividend of 14.5%)


@ohdear - no confusion

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 18:19

No confusion. Those who have NOT applied to DCS will get at least 22% on 4 September.

However, this does not directly concern those who have applied for the DCS - who will hopefully (?) get their first 50k soon (though it seems they are running late in getting the signatures validated by the Liquidators and cannot pay out until this is done ...).


Still Confused!

  • brennajm
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 22/08/2009 - 06:33

Hi

I contacted Kaupthing at IOM yesterday and found out that I have kind of fallen between two stools as they tell me I applied for the DCS (didn't intend to do that but do and did get confused by all the information/forms sent to me) but didn't submit an assignment form for DCS. Now I have to decide if I am going to do that or continue, as I had planned all along, to go with the liquidation process. Can somebody tell me if in light of the most up to date information, which is best at this point? I note from discussions clarifying the payments issue for @ohdear, for example, that the DCS people may well get their 50K soon (in September) while the rest of us will get 22.1% of our balance - mine is over 50K but under 227K. I know this is going back over old ground but if anyone has any advice for me, I'd very much appreciate it.

Thank you, Brennajm


Thanks!

  • Ohdear
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 21/08/2009 - 19:33

to expatvictim and anrigaut for taking time to clarify.

Best wishes.