General Discussions

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 05:39

Any general chat about what is going on that doesn't fall into any other categories.

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Patt62

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 05/11/2008 - 13:58

Patt i agree with you, this country is a joke now, everyone has rights except the common everyday working man, all we are good for is paying for everyone else who. The country is based on a system where to suceed you are best not doing nothing.
Its my parents who have lost their life savings, i am 33 and was planning on buying myeslf a place next year (hoping the housing prices come down). This has now changed my future too, i will now be staying at home and helping my parents keep their house. I left college and worked hard, saved money, did everything i should, where does it get me? Even if i do buy my own place all i have to look forward to is a life of scrapping buy to pay the mortgage, pay for council tax, pay for over priced fuel bills, pay pay pay basically.
My other option would have been to leave school, at 16, get a similarly aged girl pregnant, get a house provided for us, turn round and say im now to depressed to work, get unemployment benefit, council tax subsidised, help with all my bills, plenty of money to sit round and drink alcohol all day whilst watching day time TV, when i get old i wouldnt have to worry about selling everything to pay for my care, goverment would pay that, they would even pay for the box to bury me 6 foot under in.
Now where is the insentive to suceed in all that!!!
If i ever do get enough money together i intend to leave the UK for good, go to a country where you can actually lead a life!!!
No hoodies, no heroin addicts (or very few anyway), no people bleeding the state dry....a place where my contribution is mine and when i need help i can get it back!!!


S&FIOM to KSFIOM

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 21:05

Does anybody have any documentary evidence that, following the purchase by Kaupthing of S&F UK & S&F IOM, existing customers were advised that the status of the IOM branch would change from being a UK subsidiary to being a subsidiary of Kaupthing Iceland ?

I have only 2 letters on the subject of this takeover;One dated 28th Apr 2005 from Tony Shearer S&F Group UK, advising that an offer had been received from Kaupthing and recommended by the S&F board. It states that the acquisition will be subject to the approval of the FSC & FSA,It also states that "Your relationaship with S&F should not be affected while the offer by Kaupthing proceeds."

The second letter is from Aiden Doherty S&F IOM dated 20th Dec 2006 advising that as of 2nd Jan 2007 S&F IOM would be renamed KSF IOM,It also confirms that S&F Group plc was acquired by Kaupthing in July 2005, It further says "None of this will affect our service to you......"

2 points:

1) Nowhere is the change of status of the bank from UK to Icelandic parentage mentioned.

2) Why did the bank continue to trade as S&F IOM after it had been acquired by Kaupthing, between July 2005 and Jan 2007 ?? ... I was still writing cheques with Singer & Friedlander (IOM) on them until quite recently.


KSFIOM ownership changed from

  • Stakeknife
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 22:38

KSFIOM ownership changed from KSF UK to Kaupthing Iceland to protect the bank from any potential Inland revenue investigation.....something that had already happened to a number of other banks on the island.


S&FIOM to KSFIOM: reply to mikeinfrance comment Wed, 21.05

  • Brian FISHER
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 22:12

What you say re: S&FIOM to KSFIOM intrigues me.

I placed GBP 75,000 on deposit in KSF/IOM in April at 6.45%pa, paid monthly. I received my interest c. the 8th of each month. I last received interest on the 8th October, ie. on the Wednesday, just a day before this mess occurred - which itself is a bit remarkable bearing in mind all the in-flighters.

I only noticed last week on reviewing all this that the credits coming into my account came from an account called S&F(IOM) Ltd, No.2.

I have thought a lot about this over the last week, but haven't yet quite figured out what conclusions to draw.

Any suggestions?

BF


S&FIOM to KSFIOM

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 21:28

FYI The legal name change was filed at the Companies registry on 2/1/07.


S&F name change

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
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  • Wed, 05/11/2008 - 00:46

Yes that agrees with what I wrote above. I'm puzzled as to why they added the Kaupthing name some 18 months after acquiring S&F ? Were they hoping that their customers wouldn't notice that the bank was no longer a UK subsidiary?


Let Labour Party Web site know our feelings

  • Maud
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:44

I have just left an e-mail for the labour party web site telling them how disgusted I am at Mr Brown and Mr Darling, short and to the point. i told them that when we come home to UK, we, nor our family, or our family's family will ever vote labour and will actively campaign to oppose them ever messing up the country again. I doubt if it will do any good but it made me feel better. Maud


Brown misused terrorist Act/IOM Constitution

  • james
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 20:29

When PM Brown invoked the terrorist legislation UNLAWFULLY to seize/freeze bank assets, he actually broke international law. The UK Government froze Manx funds being channeled through Kaupthing UK acting as agents for the IOM branchwhich were IOM branch assets. Darling, the bloody idiot and liar, Mr Gordon Brown's puppet Treasury UK Minister, has now told a Select Committee of the UK Parliament that the Isle of Man is responsible for it's own affairs on this matter. If that is the case then why did he freeze MANX assets (their offshore depositors) etc etc.

HE HAD NO RIGHT TO DO SO UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW OR UNDER THE UK LAW CONCERNING CROWN DEPENDANCIES.

It is so easy for New Labour to slag off the offshore Islands to pamper to the old "working class hero shit".

The UK Government has broken constitutional and international law!

The sooner Brown and his Government are thrown out the better.

I want my money back Mr Darling!


Spin Strategy: Are Your UK Savings Safe and Can You Trust HMG?

  • VikingRaider
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:58

No-one reading this will need any reminder that the present government has elevated spin and propaganda to a level not seen since the days of Goebbels and Third Reich, but there is a tendency to rely upon outrage and condemenation in our communications with various levels of government. We are missing a trick here.

Such is the level of mistrust and fear of banks in general and those in the United Kingdom in particular that what is known as a 'sweet stuff, fear stuff, nasty stuff' approach may be helpful; it was developed as a union-busting strategy by a top-notch 'dirty tricks' PR firm contracted by a well-known budget chain store based in the southern USA.

The first part -- 'sweet stuff' -- pushes the innocent victim angle, and this approach has made some headway. The 'fear stuff' has not been well developed, however; this requires the constant message that the banks are fragile, the crisis is much worse than the goverment is letting on and that HMG simply is unable to stem the tide of collapse. Finally, Alistair Darling has opened the door for the ''nasty stuff' approach '; this promotes the idea that whether as a result of ignorance, incompetence or corruption, HMG CAUSED the collapse of KSFIoM and is now fighting a desperate rearguard action to kick the problem into touch in the wake of Equitable Life, Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley.

This sort of holistic three-pronged strategy could set the financial services industry ablaze and increase demands for a quick and quiet settlement. One hopes the Dear Leaders can give these ideas some consideration in their busy schedule


Another backstab for expats

  • adambw
  • 13/10/08 31/08/10
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 18:49

I’ve lost lots with Derbyshire/KSFIoM, also lost lots ‘cos of the Equitable Life debacle, also due to slack regulation, and now wait for it… don’t want to disappoint all you non-EU residents too much but today, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled the Government is not obliged to pay annual inflation-linked state pension increases to expatriates. I know its nothing to do with our KSFIoM plight but after paying my NI contributions for life and being no drain on the State....? Well Messrs Brown & Darling please come here to Botswana - our hungry Kalahari lions can’t wait to meet you.

But chin up everyone, our action guys in London and IoM are just the best - you really are helping us - thanks again.


Could I have a link for that

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:21

Could I have a link for that info on ECHR and pensions, BTW?


Oh, great. Military Service

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:12

Oh, great. Military Service for 30 years, still paying UK taxes, and now that!
Mind you, I could see that coming. Why should the UK continue to inflation-proof my pension [at the UK rate] when I'm in a different "inflation zone"? even though my inflation is over 6%.
Still, Mrs G M and I have just received our UK pension forecasts ... after 2 separate lifetimes of contributions to the UK system we might [just might] get a little something back. Or not, of course, under this Government that also wants to scrap the reciprocal Health-Care agreement, so if I get REALLY sick I'll have to pay for treatment in UK.
We left the UK in part because we were tired of paying for every other bu66er, and now they're looking to zap us from a distance as well.
I dread to think how much we contributed to the UK over our respective careers in Tax and NI ... and now they could even attack what's left.
EU, and New Labour, I spit on you from a great height.


Off-shore banking on *island in Irish Sea" and other islands

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 14:23

The Chancellor must be aware that the islands' economy depends on finance and banking - if the British govt. decided to end the economies of these places - he would then have to provide for the populations there - being approx
IOM - 80,000
Jersey - 80,000
Guernsey - 60,000
Alderney - 6,000
Sark - 600
Total approx -226,600 people requiring employment and social services.
Even if nothing was done for the islands - the population are all entitled to reside in mainland UK.


Offshore expats/IOM contributions

  • Tricky Dicky
  • 24/10/08 30/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:37

You could also add to this figures with all the UK citizens non UK resident - not sure how many that would add up too, but the potential cost to HMG would probably be more than paying back what they owe.
In 1999 the IOM paid (sorry contributed) £2,000,000 directly to the UK (does anyone know the figure for 2007) as its Imperial Contribution for "defence and representation in external matters" of IOM. Is there a rebate due especially as in discussions between HMG and Icelands Govt, HMG to me are both gamekeeper and poacher at the same time


Alistair Darling is a buffoon

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 14:35

Alistair Darling is a buffoon who (failed as Transport minister), yesterday got involved in things he knows nothing about

He cannot just end our economy. The IOM (like Channel Islands) is an independent Crown dependency with its own Parliament and Government that is over 1000 years old and has been going longer than UK Gov. There are constitutional arrangements in place with the UK that the UK are perfectly happy with and what he said yesterday was not official UK Gov policy - I think he was making it up as he went along!!! probably in direct response to being asked questions that he did not have answers to


Darling Bufoon

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 18:58

How wrong we can get things eh! I registered my name in the days after the collapse and Tony Brown's annoying comments about the DCS. But really I should have called myself BufoonBrown (after Gordon)!

The Isle of Man looks quite nice on the news clips, i am ready to move there and fight the UK. How do I get citizenship? Do i need to marry a Manx girl?


Jersey is nice too, but you

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:26

Jersey is nice too, but you can't get in unless [broadly] you are either Jersey family, an essential worker [= finance industry and a few others like doctors] or really quite well off. The control mechanism is housing qualifications.

And the climate's much nicer than IOM, although you wouldn't have thought so last week!


Isle of Man is well worth a visit - even a long one!

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:22

I spent 10 days on the island between 16 and 26th Oct. I went on an impulse to give some moral support to the small group already there. lt was my first visit the place where I had sunk a huge a chunk of my savings! I must say I liked it enormously. And I will go back for sure.

It is real. It is gritty. You wont find harbours full of expensive yachts or Ferraris on every street corner - like some other bolt-holes for the rich and famous (and IoM has its share of these). It is something like a cross between Cornwall and Scotland (IMO). The people are friendly but honest. They wont take any nonsense.

If you are a Brit you dont need anything to go to IoM. Not even a passport. I think the situation for other EU citzens is much the same.

I have some pics I might post to a new thread - for those others who have money in a bank there but have never actually seen the place.


muppet get on over here then,

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:17

muppet get on over here then, these guys really are fighting for us, they know the peril they run agianst the Uk, but still stand up, and some think that they are feebing me bullshit! Really it took a very brave man to say what Tony Brown said today if you understood the politics of this. Makes me feel the past weeks have very much been worth the lack of sleep and the persuasion.
dont know how much more evidence it takes that we should back them up.


Ramsey resident

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:00

This are 2 small extracts from the treasury committees 637 page report on offshore financial centres

"The Isle of Man is a key contributor of deposits and business referrals to the City of London. The Island (along with the other Crown Dependencies) is a significant component of the UK’s
proposition as the world’s leading financial centre. We propose that it would be to the benefit of
both the UK exchequer, and to the Island, for the Isle of Man to be promoted and endorsed
internationally by the UK Government as a key contributor to the success of the City of London"

"The geographic proximity and time zone of the Isle of Man and other Crown Dependencies has
been important factors in the development of the City of London over the past two decades, to its
current position as the World’s pre-eminent finance centre"

see: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/OFCWrittenEvidence140708.pdf

Another brief extract:

"As we are now seeing this behaviour is being replicated in the
world’s major tax havens, of which, the UK is without doubt the most important. It is no
longer possible for any objective person to deny the obvious fact that the UK is a tax
haven and that the City of London is an OFC seeking to exercise control over our state

Also see forum: General Discussion of Issues/ UK IS A TAX HAVEN


mikeinfrance

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:05

Thanks mikeinfrance for that

I may have lost money as a depositor but as a Manx resident I fully support this islands independent existence and economy

I have said it before - this situation was NOT of the IOM's making however our Gov is pulling out all the stops to find a solution to this. The problem is that we have a very small part on a large stage!! Therefore help is required from any direction and the people trying to talk down the IOM are doing nothing to help their own cause


Those answers would have been prepared

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 15:49

The main problem here is - none of the answers from See no blame, Hear no blame and Take no Blame at the meeting would have purely been "off the cuff", they will have had advance copies of the questions and teams of specialists would have prepared those answers.

In most cases they were playing to the views of the Uk electorate in attacking so called "for offshore tax benefits" in a feeble attempt to shift blame on anyone but himself and government - the answers were pure damage limitation without answering a single question with a straight answer - ie politics never tell the truth when an oblige story will do.

I do believe that some attempt will be made to restrict or abandon the banking interests on all the Islands using the "failure" and loss of savings as an excuse this is something the Islands governments will have to take onboard when dealing with Westminster, and whow what a conflict of interest that is.

I for one certainly don't advocate this site and members assisting the present government in destroying the Islands main income, there's absolutely no benefit to be gained from that, if we are going to mount extensive actions this should be directed at where it hurts them most - the UK ballot box.

In order to do this we need to get more support (even some support would be a step forward) from the tabloid newspapers - so far I've seen nothing printed in the Mirror, Sun etc,. we appear to have gained a reasonable presence in the "old" broadsheet papers with just the odd hiccup. Ok so many of media think we have over saturated at times with the full frontal assault, we should try and get a column printed in some and possibly push other aspects of the damage this government is doing to every citizen whether resident or ex-pat. See no blame tries the constant undermining of "tax advantages" lets play the same game - audience will be smaller in a target group of "middle england" voters.

Will have to leave it up to those more eloquent with the pen than I, first stage the Islands governments all have to be thinking along the same lines and questioning See no blames answers, they have too or he will try and sink them.


It is already happening IOM

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 15:54

It is already happening

IOM Chief Minister has this morning asked for an urgent meeting with UK Gov over unprecedented and unnacceptable statements made by Darling yesterday


Darling v IOM !!

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:37

Here are the links to IOM todays articles including video of press conference:

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Darling-comments-threaten-to-escalate.465...

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Darling-accused-of-39washing-his.4656900.jp

a few extracts:

Mr Bell said he suspected that the only reason Mr Darling said those words was to 'deflect attention' from the fact the UK government had slipped up by freezing KSF (IoM) deposits in the UK.

He said the comments were totally inaccurate and the Isle of Man was not a tax haven and had not gone 'cap in hand' to the UK to sort out its problems.

'We are not asking the UK for any favours, but they do have a constitutional responsibility to represent us internationally. We have also pointed out, in support of depositors with the local bank, that the closure of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander in the Isle of Man was the direct result of actions taken by the UK Government.'


Eyebrows Vs Moustache

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 17:20

Wow its certainly heating up politically, at the moment and if the treasury meeting is anything to go by, Darling could end up with those luscious full bodied eyebrows being scorched off of his face!!!!! Try as they might anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that the UK goverment's actions sunk us.....they realise it to which is why they havent totally closed the door on us. Now they are just playing the "it wasnt me mum, it was Billy" game!!!


At last - Brown puts on the gloves

  • n1gel
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 18:16

I have slight warmth in my heart that Brown rather than jump up and down behind closed doors has publically refused to be bullied by the UK and appears to be standing up for both the IoM and the victims of KSF.

Long may it continue - well done Mr Brown.


Questions

  • dave
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 18:26

I feel that although we have asked many questions we still have not got the answer to why the papers were sealed on the placement of KSFUK in administration. One hopes that the Iceland legal team press the judiciary to release them as I am sure there is smoking gun buried in them. Why else seal them. We must continue to highlight this fact. If nothing to hide release the papers


why sealed papers?

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:58

I fully agree with the need to ask the question,at the highest possible level of why the KSFUK court papers are sealed and why ONLY KSFUK... why not Landsbankii,Heritable ? Should we urge the media to ask this particular question and/or get an MP to ask this question in Thursday's debate ?


Alistair Darling

  • manksman
  • 01/11/08 31/05/09
  • not prepared to answer
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 15:38

My take was that Mr Darling did not say that he would never repay the money, rather he tried very hard to give the impression that he was taking a tough line. My thought is that it is all about negotiating and doing a deal sometime that will save face.
As regards UK tax payers, that is a very loose phase. It is possible to have had a deposit in KEdge UK and not have been a UK (income or capital gains) tax payer at all. On the other hand, if you had worked all your life for HMG and retired with a significant UK Civil Service pension you would be a UK Income Tax payer, even if you then moved to the Isle of Man and paid no IOM tax yet used Isle of Man hospitals etc. That is how it has worked out for several people.
Mr Darling did bail out Bradford & Bingley International (Isle of Man). I think that happened because B&B (UK) had net assets in excess of liabilities in the UK and it was cheaper to sell the IOM company to Santander rather than pay back the share of the assets. B&B Int was a subsidiary of the UK Bank, which is another difference.
I would love to know the actual asset position of Kaupthing Iceland ie what assets owned and where are they. Did they match assets and liabilities by currancy or was a lot of it denominated in Iceland's currancy, eg loans to UK retailers.


I wouldn't even begin to

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:01

I wouldn't even begin to suggest I know the man, but I would happily subscribe to him possibly "keeping his options open".

My take was that Mr Darling did not say that he would never repay the money, rather he tried very hard to give the impression that he was taking a tough line. My thought is that it is all about negotiating and doing a deal sometime that will save face.

Quite right. Love him or loathe him, he's a politician ... and he will be working in a political arena, behind the scenes, "Don't mention this, old chap, but ..."

On the other hand, if you had worked all your life for HMG and retired with a significant UK Civil Service pension you would be a UK Income Tax payer, even if you then moved to the Isle of Man and...

... And The Chancellor KNOWS there are loads of people caught up in the "fuzzy edges" of this farrago who were/are [and probably will be again] a vocal electorate. Difficult though it is for me to type these words, he's not a complete idiot. He CANNOT simply and publicly sign up to £nnn million of UK tapayers' money to resolve the issues of off-shore depositors. What he CAN do, and I truly believe he will try to do, is to find some mechanism where [quietly and without obvious publicity] he can get Iceland/IMF or indeed HMG to resolve the issue. There has been massive publicity, and it won't blow away behind the smokescreen of Obama/MCain because there are too many people who have suffered too much from this cataclysmic event. AND he knows that we are either voters, or will again be voters, or have family who are voters ... and the one thing politicians DO understand is their own self-interest.


go man are you sure "he's not a complete idiot"

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 16:45

go man are you sure "he's not a complete idiot"

at the moment,

comments on Iceland

more recently offhandedly describes IoM as simply "an Island in the middle of the Irish sea"

& even with the carefully drafted responses to questions he couldn't get them right and had to keep correcting himself.

he seems to be going out of his way to offend any Island smaller than UK, wonder what his schooldays were like???

he's certainly not the smartest one in the pot

& in the article from todays IoM today (link posted above) even his chief ally & defender has sent him an urgent letter to explain himself --

sounds to me like he's on the slope, greased up and ready -- could be "teddy" brown "bear" has found a scapegoat and a little more primming and he's gone!!!!!


He's been briefed into

  • go mann
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 18:38

He's been briefed into submission by various people who have a greater understanding of the subject. He's a political mouth who, at the moment, is possibly out of his depth. Never forget that the Corridors of Whitehall tell Ministers what to say ... I even had Tom King use a paragraph "wot I wrote" in the Commons debate over Gulf War 1.

On this occasion Darling had to "fast-foot" a lot of it. And the remark about "an Island in the middle of the Irish Sea" shows how pressurised he is feeling ... GOOD. He's under pressure, and unrelenting pressure will tell.
It is not in this pseudo-Government's interests to alienate even MORE voters.


re - He's been briefed into

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 19:08

agreed - but even he must have the savvy to know by now when to quit with this tax haven rhetoric, he's just digging a deeper hole for himself as this issue above all others clearly shows he doesn't have a clue of the status of the Islands and tax disclosure / withholding.

Anyone wanting to avoid tax and has the money to do so there's plenty of ""legal"" loopholes to keep all their money in the mainland and well out harms way, the Channel Islands and the IoM depositor accounts are certainly not the place to do it from...


UK tax payers

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 13:55

Re Darling's comments about protecting british taxpayers; I thought this treasury statement was interesting:

"Arrangements are being put in place to ensure that all ISA customers of Icesave will continue to benefit from the tax-free status of their accounts"

see: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_103_08.htm


UK Taxpayers

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 14:26

And here's another point.

Why are Ice Save retail customers being repaid. Landbanski was not a UK bank - I believe there was no UK subsidiary . I understand they have an office in UK but that can't make it a UK bank.

If someone would be kind enough to explain the reasoning for the bail out to me then I could begin to understand a little more


Public opinion

  • Yogi
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 13:11

Afternoon All,

I had hoped for some result (that I could understand, so much of this is beyond me) but still hope that there is movement behind the scenes. (I don't meant our scenes, I KNOW so many of you are working constantly for all the depositors)

Bearing in mind the public mis-conception of us being tax evaders, is there any mileage in the thought that IF we don’t get our money back, neither do all of our councils……we the tax payer (and the proper tax payers too) will have to refund this money somehow, or be bailed out for it?

Thank you.


Kaupthing takeover

  • steve
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 12:19

One or two interesting observations which did not seem important at the time. I have been reading the glossy brochure we Derbyshire customers were sent last November, with a picture of Aidan Doherty welcoming us! Interestingly, the opening sentence is "Kaupthing Bank is a Northern European bank...." In the next paragraph it starts "The Bank operates in fourteen countries, including all the Nordic countries (Denmark, Faroe Islands, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) Luxembourg, Switzerland, the UK, the US,Dubai, Qatar and the Isle of Man and employs 3,190 people throughout the organisation".
Am I being cynical, or was the word "Iceland" buried in the middle on purpose. When I first read this through, I thought we were dealing with a German Bank because it sounded German. I still think there are an awful lot of questions that need answering on this whole sordid mess. At the back of this brochure, the strapline in big letters at the top the Q and A page says " No one knows what the future will bring, but we can stand by you when it comes" Sounds odd reading it now doesn't it?


Kaupthing brochure for Derbyshire customers

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 13:14

I too have been re-reading this. The heading to the first page rings hollow too:
"Until you start doing something differently, you are in for more of the same". What I wouldn't give to still be having "more of the same" - ie the old Debyshire deal.

Like you I never realised Kaupthing was an Icelandic bank and find it strange that it was never stated anywhere...

Other Q/A's of note include:

Q3. What kind of security will Kaupthing provide for investors' money?
Kaupthing hf, the Bank's ultimate parent, will provide a parental guarantee which replaces the parental guarantee from Derbyshire Building Society ... meaning that customers can continue to have peace of mind regarding their deposits.
- and how!

Q5. Why did Derbyshire Building Society decide to sell its offshore business?
Derbyshire Building Society has concluded ... that Derbyshire Offshore is is no longer central to its stategic direction or funding requirements.
- how informative! Should have smelled a rat here - and guess I probably did wonder, but being a trusting, innocent and naive soul, did nothing about it. Not least because of the answer to Q11.

Q8. What is Kaupthing and can it look after my money and me as a customer?
Kaupthing Group is a European bank .... ... and operates in fourteen countries including all the Nordic countries, Luxembourg, Switzerland, the UK and the Isle of Man.
- here it's not even a "Northern European" bank and no specific mention of Iceland...

Q11. If I wish to close my existing accounts as a result of the sale of Derbyshire Offshore, can I do so without giving notice and without penalty?
No. .....
- In July 2007 I had subscribed to a 1-year and a 3-year bond with Derbyshire.


Strike One!

  • ItsTheft
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:25

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/isle_of_man/7707761.stm

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Darling-accused-of-39washing-his.4656900.jp

Looking at the press spin it looks like the "silver bullet" option is dead. Though it would have felt unrealistically easy if the UK Gov had just waved a wand and guaranteed our savings.

I would say we have two more pitches to swing at:

1 - Iceland somehow guarantee our deposits. Question is will they get enough out of IMF and other loans (including UK, which is already on a runaway borrowing spree!) to get this far down their priority list. Make no mistake, we are not high up on anyone's list (except IOM who can only compensate us for up to £50k per). Though there is logic that says Darling will want to bail out UK savers in IOM while saving face on HMG's actions to seize assets under anti-terrorism, and one way to do that is hard rhetoric against Iceland, yet lend them the money!

2 - IOM Compensation scheme which leaves us with £50k per. They have made a big sacrifice to free up Gov cash (which wasn't how the compensation scheme was originally set up) presumably so they could pay us back quickly.

That is about it. No magic solution, No Robin Hood, No Superman - just reality...

Allen Bell's comments are interesting. I hope he spends some time on the hotline over the next few days. I legitimately believe the the IOM is in big trouble given comments from UK Gov officials and the new president elect (slam dunk), Obama. If I were an IOM saver in say, Barclays, and I happened to be keeping up with this story (fortunately for IOM banks, almost no one will be), I would be moving my IOM cash to the UK, and fast.

I am not just bashing IOM to create pressure, I really think they are in trouble. The UK needs tax revenue badly, and probably think there is a honey hole in the Irish sea. I suppose investors looking to keep sterling and not pay UK tax (for legitimatel reasons!) will soon be banking in the Caymans or Switzerland.


Switzeland?

  • columbgc
  • 11/10/08 14/07/10
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:30

I may be wrong but last I checked they were covering only 30,000 CHF ....


re re KSFIOM to KSFUK

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:38

As Alistair Darling said last night he was taking care of British TAX Payers - why don't we write to him saying we would love to pay tax on our interest earned on our KSFIOM - (which some of us already do) - even if we are not liable to UK tax ( because not living there)
Plus - the money was in UK and most of UK are UK citizens - what would be the argument against that?


re re re KSFIOM toKSFUK

  • steveejeb
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:56

"As Alistair Darling said last night he was taking care of British TAX Payers "

Well, guess what? I am a British TAX payer, I live in Britain, I am British and I pay all my taxes including ALL the TAX on (what were) my IOM deposits.

Speaking of TAX, I will have to pay my TAX by end of January 2009. Guess what? I won't have the money to be able to pay my tax bill !! So go ahead and sue or imprison me Mr. Darling......


RE - KSFIOM to KSFUK

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:28

Very interesting point - our money WAS in UK and as British subjects - why are we not compensated?
Is this a new legal point?


RE - KSFIOM to KSFUK

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:51

In banks money moves around all the time, or it used to before the credit crunch stopped banks lending to each other. The point here is that when the money was transferred to the UK from the IOM it put the IOM bank into a position of illiquidity were it could not pay people if they made a cash call. That's why the IOM government had to put KS&F into liquidation because it could not meet it's liabilities under banking regulations. It is unlikely the law was broken in moving money from the IOM to the UK but it is more likely that not honouring the parent guarantee from Iceland is illegal under international commercial law if it can be proved that Kaupthing hf is still an ongoing business entity, which under the Transfer of Undertakings law, (TUPE), it will be. If the money had been transferred to Lehman Brothers in the US you would not be protected under US laws, so your point, legally is a red herring in regard to transferring money into the UK as being protected under the UK mainland compensation scheme. Sorry.


Preferencial treatment

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:10

I think the most disturbing fact of it is that the 550 million was transfered staright over to ING and their depositors, this seems like preferencial treatment to me.
Why should one group of depositors get preferencial treatment over the other, both are money's were in Kaupthing UK???
Another point is that our money as far as i was aware was not held in an Edge account, why then has it been transfered to ING???
Surely if the goverment wanted to bail out edge, all Edge account should have been transfered out to ING and the goverment topped it up out of its own money.....not by raping the rest of the company.

If eyebrows were a measure of integrity we would be ok right now.....but alas they are not!!!!!!!!!


ING misconception

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 13:39

It seems to be a common misconception that our money has gone to ING! It hasn't! The UK taxpayer has has funded the transfer of Edge accounts from KSFUK to ING (to the tune of £2.5Bn) Non Edge account holders have been compensated using the UKs compensation scheme.
see:http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_102_08.htm seeKSF item 4, notes to editors 3

The treasury is now a creditor in the liquidation process of KSFIOM just as is KSFIOM.


Not preferrential treatment

  • Ally
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:50

The IoM £550 was NOT transferred to ING simply because there wasn't a pile of cash of £550 million in London.

Banks don't have to keep much more than 10% of their assets in cash. So money deposited by KSF IoM would have been lent out in the form of mortgages, loans, corporate loans etc, just as any depositor’s money in the UK would have been.

Anyway that is by the by as, as has been clearly stated and can be found on UK government websites and in numerous press releases the funds that were transferred over to ING came from the UK's FSCS via a loan from the UK Treasury, and the FSCS has now replaced the depositors of Kaupthing Edge UK as an unsecured creditor.


Movement of Funds to Ing

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:31

Monkeyface raises some quite valid points all of which I totally agree with. However in my opinion the issue is - how insolvent is KSF(UK) Ltd ?

I think we need a massive amount of information relating to the UK company and to Mr Darling's interference.

Very few details have made made public re the mechanics of the Ing transfer. I, for one, would be interested in hearing exactly what happened, how it happen, and why it happened and more importantly what incentives were offered to Ing to take over what they took over (and at who's cost)

The other piece of information which I would like to have confirmed is;

Was the UK company actually in breach of FSC regulations when Mr Darling stepped in. Has this point actually been confirmed ?


Preferencial treatment new

  • Anonymous
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 11:27

I would like to clarify how banks work by using the example of "pass the parcel". If a £5 note was passed round 20 people (banks) continuously, the effect would be that the banks could lend £100 (20 x £5) to the outside world. But if everyone asked for their money back, i.e. £100, the banks couldn't pay. That's what's happened across the world today. Because ING bought Kaupthing UK before the KS&F disaster has been resolved, ING got the £5 note that should also be in KS&F. The ING transfer of money won't be changed.The only way that the £550m will be returned to the IOM is if the governments make banks start "passing the parcel" again. Most of the money transferring around the globe is virtual not real. It is therefore important to continue the lobbying and pressure on all relevant parties. The parent guarantee, mis-selling and lack of info given to depositors are the levers.


KSFIOM to KSFUK

  • french chic
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 10:21

This is probably completely niaive of me to ask but if our money was 'transferred' to KSFUK don't we now come into the category that Gordon Brown announced that nobody would lose their savings? I'm finding it hard to follow what's happened to my money - all I know is that the transfer I made for completion on the house I was buying in the UK got lost somewhere in London and nobody can tell me any more.