General Discussions

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 05:39

Any general chat about what is going on that doesn't fall into any other categories.

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Liquidation and DCS

  • annespension
  • 19/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 15/11/2008 - 10:51

elgee is correct that if the bank doesn't go into liquidation the DCS doesn't trigger. However, if the bank is insolvent it will go into liquidation eventually as it can't trade whilst insolvent so the scenario presented of the bank carrying on and only paying out a percentage can't happen.


DCS

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sat, 15/11/2008 - 11:23

Yes, that is certainly true, unless the IoM parliament legislates to the contrary. However, even if it does not, then what you are proposing will long delay the triggering ofthe DCS, theerby causing and continuing severe hardship for many depositors.


Emotional response

  • zoggy
  • 13/11/08 31/05/09
  • not prepared to answer
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 09:37

I was with a friend in Philadelphia recently explaining my feelings - much the same as you all.

He called it the Sarah principle:-

S hock
A nger
R ejection
A cceptance
H elp

We need to get to the last stage soonest helping each other through and most importantly work together as we seek justice.

Keep trucking


Responses

  • Julienne
  • 16/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Sat, 15/11/2008 - 01:43

Yes SARAH principle is one of the Psychological an acronyms to describe the stages of bereavement (there are others - which include the word depression - can't remember them right now)
and YES this is a bereavement - the word doesn't just mean a death - it means a LOSS the difference here is WE CAN & WILL revive the victim - OUR MONEY.

So follow all the good advice below - especially stay off the booze (I personally haven't touched a drop since this happened - if I did I probably would drink the cellar dry !!) Then you can't think clearly.

Action makes you feel better - so think of a question to send to the BBC Politics Show - it is constructive - If you can't think of what you believe to be a good one use some of those already posted - change the words a bit and BINGO you have ACTION - YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, we already have.

As I am far away from receiving BBC I have told all my friends back in UK to watch ....... Educate the public as well - It took me 3 weeks to finally educate my best friend who still thought I was dodging tax after 20 yrs. - unbelievable.


Hi I recognise some those

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:28

Hi I recognise some those things, not through this episode, but from a time in `993 when my world collpased,. What you need to beware of is depression, seeing the world through what I used to call dark eyes, the daily despairs. Seeing light in these situations is not easy I know, but you need to try. What you are suffering is a medical condition and do not think you are alone, I assure you many, many others are suffering, diver and I know only to well from thje phone calls and emails. There is nothing wrong with seeing the doc and getting some pills, This is not a time for letting you pride get in the way.

I have been through the adrenalin rushed atate of the first ten days, brain race I call it, then the overhwhelming anger moment I had when a table nearly learnt to fly! I then started to calm down and get control of my emotions. All of this a nornmal part of a pattern.

You are not alone and keep that in mind. Hold your loved ones tight and walk forward, in the end humans are remarkably adabptable and very strong, use it.


Anxiety symptoms...

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 07:58

Does anyone else have symptoms? I have developed 'itchy skin' and cannot stop scratching my arms. My apprehension is palpable, I feel sick to my stomach whenever I dwell upon the injustice of this situation we have been put in. I just put my savings in a building society because I knew I could not deal with 'high risk investments' - now I am more stressed with the fear of a lifetime's savings going down the spout than I could ever have imagined....

ANXIETY
Definition Psychiatry: A state of apprehension, uncertainty, and fear resulting from the anticipation of a realistic or fantasized threatening event or situation, often impairing physical and psychological functioning.


To Icecrusher

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:48

Keep strong !! Every day I wake up, the first thing that comes to mind is this siutation and the stomach immediately tightens. I keep thinking I am still asleep and its a dream, then reality kicks in. Many of us feel our lives have caved in and fear for the future, but now more than ever you need to be strong and look after your health. Go to the doctor if need be ...... get some fresh air, sounds corney but it does actually help ...... talk to people around you to change the subject, trawling this site on a bad day can make you very despondant when there is no glimmer of light - I know! Also, watch your blood pressure, even if you are a youngster, again sounds corney, but it dosn't cost anything to have it checked.


yes, those symtoms would be

  • iching555
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:29

yes, those symtoms would be anxiety, but actually, remember, they only exist because of this current problem which will be resolved soon, and for this reason, why suffer? stress is actually like ice, and its energy that gets stuck and cant move out. We naturally radiate energy and if its stuck, then the type of symtoms you describe are certainly this. So, how do you solve it? Best way is to relax, and dont dwell on this crap, stay away from the site for a while and especially dont surf the web late at night. Drink warm drinks, stay off booze ( has the opposite effect, causes radiation but heat goes inside when effects wear off ). Also, dont assume your a victim, its negative, your a warrior who doesnt take risks because you are steadfast in your ways and people value your presence and opinions.

stay in the groove

your money is safe, mark my words.


Symptoms

  • Yogi
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:45

Hi Everyone,

Comforting words itching555, thank you.

My personal suffering - keeps emerging in tears, I feel so pathetic. I can't discuss the situation with friends or family without the endless b****y tears. My husband & I don't have the largest amount in the pot, we have our health (excluding fingernails and sanity) and have each other. But we could never imagine how hard this would hit us (and I do mean for all of us involved).

I find this site addictive and can't stay away - I would have missed your calming words and although it sounds awfully perverse, it IS a help to know we are not alone.

It shows how emotionally involved we all are - have you seen some of our spellings!!!

Thank you, keep on keeping on everybody. x

ps - does anyone else struggle with the CAPTA code - it usually takes me a couple of goes!


iching555 Yes that is quite

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:39

iching555 Yes that is quite correct, stay off the booze its a deprsent. look at the ways this can be solved, try to put the injustice bit aside and look at the efforts people are making. Look for the snipets of good news, and they ahve been there everday for over a week if you look.

I agree stay away from the more contentious remarks on the site, stay away from conflict. And yes DO NOT BE A VICTIM.

I used thespeach in Galiadotr by Russel Crowe to kick myself into gea

MY name is maximus
i am commander of the armies of the north and a true friend of rome
i am the father of a mudered child
and the husband of a murded wife
and will have my vengance in this world or the next

It worked for me!!! I am no victim!


i'm sure lots of people are

  • sad
  • 10/10/08 31/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:35

i'm sure lots of people are suffering from physical symptoms because of this mess, we must continue to support each other. i'm also worried about 'friends' who no longer seem to log on...has anyone been in touch with mat walker? of course he could just have connection problems...i hope that is all it is...


Morning Icecrusher, Welcome

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 08:16

Morning Icecrusher,
Welcome to my world.Throw in there a few panic attacks,pins and needles,stomach cramps and IBS.
Argh well,nothing that £391,000 would sort out!


Whatever Happened to Iceland's Economic 'Miracle'?

  • VikingRaider
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 14/11/2008 - 04:34

For those wishing to understand what went wrong in Iceland the OECD Economic Survey: Iceland (2006) is an informative if rather dry read.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8nBHTuxRG2IC&pg=PA69&dq=iceland+economi...


KS&F UK Creditors meeting

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Thu, 13/11/2008 - 15:15

Were we represented? Another meeting in ONE month!?

2008.11.12, 21:51
Kaupthing's Resolution Committee meets with creditors

Kaupthing Bank's Resolution Committee met today for the first time with representatives of large creditors of the bank (Informal Creditors' Committee). The meeting was constructive and it is anticipated that another meeting will be held within a month. The Resolution Committee looks forward to working with the Informal Creditors' Committee towards a solution which maximizes recovery for all stakeholders.

http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.uk/pages/2304?path=K/133944/PR/200811/126...


KS&F UK Creditors meeting

  • steve
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 13/11/2008 - 17:05

Good question. Does anyone out there know what this meeting means to us IOM lot?


Steve, Do not get the

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 13/11/2008 - 17:10

Steve,
Do not get the resolution commitee confused with the KSF UK creditors meetings (if any have occurred). the resolution committee relates to Kaupthing Bank in Iceland and is supposed to deal with all its outstanding debts. Howver as they have no money and cannot get any money till they settle there problems with HMG and Holland there is little chance of them paying up on guarantees.
There should however be a creditors meeting of KSF UK but as we are not in the loop for that one I have no idea if and when, but PWC should be there.


ksf creditors meeting

  • dave
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 13/11/2008 - 21:31

Does anyone know if LP was represented at the meeting. We KSF IOM are a major creditor and must surely be represented ?


The Chief Minister T Brown is

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 18:48

The Chief Minister T Brown is to meet the Lord High Chancellor on Thursday and a few hundred emails hitting on M'Lord Jack between now and then wouldn't go amiss. The Lord Chancellor holds an exalted position - very high ranking with a salary to match (>£200,000 per year). One of his roles is 'Keeper of the Queens Conscience' -- that could be used quite nicely... Now, I am sure there are many of us that could rearrange these words into a nice little message?

blackburnlabour(?)hotmail [dot] com

House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA or,

                            Constituency Office
                            Richmond Chambers
                            Richmond Terrace
                            Blackburn, BB1 7AS

The Lord Chancellor's position in the modern order of precedence is an extremely high one; generally, he is outranked only by the Royal Family and high ecclesiastics. In England, the Lord Chancellor precedes all non-royal individuals except the Archbishop of Canterbury. In Scotland, he precedes all non-royal individuals except the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Although Lord Chancellor "of Great Britain", he maintains a position in the order of precedence in Northern Ireland; there, he outranks all non-royal individuals with the exception of the Anglican and Roman Catholic Archbishops of Armagh, the Anglican and Roman Catholic Archbishops of Dublin and the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Throughout the United Kingdom, the Lord Chancellor technically outranks the Prime Minister, although the latter generally possesses more power. The precedence of a Lord Keeper of the Great Seal is equivalent to that of a Lord Chancellor. The precedence of Lords Commissioners of the Great Seal is much lower (see United Kingdom order of precedence).

The Lord Chancellor is entitled to an annual emolument of £227,736 and to an annual pension of £106,868. The Lord Chancellor's salary is higher than that of any other public official, including even the Prime Minister, although sometimes the officeholder may voluntarily decide to receive a reduced salary.

As he technically outranks the PM, he is the one person (bar HMQ) who could maybe turn this thing around, let's wish him the best of luck in this endevour!

IceCrusher


Has anyone got a reply?

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 22:51

From Jack Straw?
I have sent him 3 emails not even an acknowledgment.
I am very disappointed about this as I have always quite admired the man.
However I do think that Icecrusher is right and a mass appeal to concience would be a good idea.
I have been using the blackburn email for him.
I also wrote and faxed.

However nothing ventures nothing -gained so once more into the fray .........................


'Keeper of the Queens Conscience'

  • Daughter
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 20:56

Lord High Chancellor is the "Keeper of the Queens Conscience" that is an angel that could be played. If any one is to eloquently word a letter to Lord High Chancellor with this statement it might remind him of his role.
Just a thought.

We could tackle the letter from the "conscience" angle over how many of us are hurting and finding ourselves in situations we would never believe could happen.

It could have the heading of several of the stories and predicaments people are finding themselves in through no fault of their own.


KSF Funds in Flight Not Allowed to Stand

  • BustedFlat
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 16:33

IOM today seems to report a lot of old news, but for anyone who has funds in flight this may be relevant :

http://www.ksfiomdepositors.org/news-item/ksf-funds-flight-not-allowed-s...


Lawyer Smalley thinks liquidation is inevitable.

  • BustedFlat
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 09:14

See news item from IOM Today:

http://www.ksfiomdepositors.org/news-item/smalley-thinks-liquidation-ine...

Don't know whether that's really bad news though. Basically they say that the £557m in the UK is gone, leaving KSF IOM as an unsecured creditor and Iceland isn't going to cough-up because the parental guarantee was with the 'non-nationalised' portion of the Icelandic bank.

Anyone know why these guys are actually commenting ? I saw some discussion of them earlier but don't know who they represnt.

I still think the adjourment of liquidation was the right thing to do since it allowed the 'facts' (or at least some of them) to propogate. At the next meeting everyone involved will be better informed.

I don't see that it's an end-game yet, whether liquidation is called or not.


Mr Smalley - an agenda

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 18:30

I think Mr Smalley has a big axe to grind against the FSC
He is calling them the Failed Supervision Commission - how is that helpful, sounds childish to me, not what you would expect from a professional lawyer.
I think that perhaps he has a private agenda, not a professional one.


Smalley's Conflict

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 12/11/2008 - 15:50

We know that Mr. Smalley has already admitted to a conflict in his first information bulletin.

As Smalley has not disclosed the nature of that conflict, I think it would be prudent of depositors on this forum to consider any of his remarks with a suitable degree of skepticism.

Blair


Liquidation

  • 208
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:25

I have avoided making comments recently. I am aware that unguarded comments can harm our efforts as this is an open forum. Regarding Mr Smalley and his agenda I think that he is HEDGING HIS BETS.


Smalley & Liquidation

  • Downbutnotout
  • 11/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:15

Smalley has taken the view since day one that there should be liquidation. Is there a reason for this?

As you say why call for liquidation before the first hearing surely the most sensible thing to do would have been to extend at the first hearing and that is exactly what the court did.

Come 27 November if the government applied for an extension again I think that they will have to produce something more than "negotiations are ongoing" so then the Court and hopeful we can see that some progress has been made and if it means delaying another week or two why not?

If no one can put something meaningful in front of the court then it is the Court's duty to proceed to liquidation anyway.

I can't see how it can be of any benefit to the IoM government to delay unless they think they can resolve the situation more satisfactorily then using the DCS. I don't think it is building up false hopes, nothing might come from it but you need time to look at plans, so it is not building up false hopes at all it is just giving themselves time to see what they can do.

Looking at the numbers if the Isle of Man wants to pull together a deal it does not necessarily need the return of the full £550m if Smalley were looking at the numbers he would realise that. And who says all £550m is gone. Some local authorities in the UK seem to believe they will make a good recovery on amounts held with KSF UK, and they would be unsecured creditors just as KSF IoM is, what does Smalley know that they don’t?!


Dont know why IOM Today are

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:00

Dont know why IOM Today are just reporting this as news. I am sure Smalley made the same comments last week!

I would imagine that he is making the statement based on his experiences with a normal liquidation case but really he is just making an educated guess.

As we all know, this is by any means not a normal case and anything could happen.

I would also suggest that the only people who know what the chances of getting all or some of the funds back from KSF UK are Earnst & Young.


reply to expat france 1

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:05

I agree with you but the problem is lack of information from E & Y.


E&Y issue

  • 1log
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:14

It is unfortunate that the people who control a major portion of our money (E&Y) do not have our interests in their radar. They are concerned only with their task of securing money for ING. We then fall in line with the rest of the unsecured creditors. How this money form KSFIOM was not ringfenced in KSFUK is baffling me since it is essentially upstreaming from their subsidiary! With the sealed papers it is even more frustrating that no news is coming from their end. I only hope that an interim IOM / UK govt loan is arranged so that the IOM FSC takes responsibility for this action of transferring funds from IOM to UK. IOM govt should take this step since our time frame does not allow us to sit on the fence forever waiting for the E&Y lips to move.


I thought that all UK

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:21

I thought that all UK depositors money had already been transfered to ING in the form of a loan from the UK Government.

The UK Government then just replaced all the individual depositors as an unsecured creditor like KSF IOM.

The UK Administrator should nto be favouring one unsecured creditor (HMG) over another (KSFIOM)


Ing Transfer

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:30

If the Ing transfer is all done & dusted then I wonder what E & Y are doing ! What we need to see is some sort of current statement of affairs. Has this been published yet ?

It's easy to say that UK administration should not be favouring one unsecured creditor over another but let's not forget who was behind the Uk bank going into administration in the first place and let's not forget Dozy Darling's stupid mumblings at the UK Treasury debate.

I'm sorry but it seems as if the UK government can do what they like, move the goalposts when they like and chop and change the laws to suit. How I wish we could do the same !


£557 Gone who says That??

  • 1log
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 09:33

I don't believe that anyone can comment on what proportion if not all of the KSFIOM assets in KSFUK will be returned. E&Y are said to be working on their priority - transfer of funds to ING direct - and other unsecured creditors such as London Transport and some councils are optimistic ( they must have news that we are not privy to) Too early to say that liquidation is not a bad thing!! - since PwC will be more happier than us the depositors. We have to hope and wait for the negotiations that Expat says could be to our benefit. Lets focus on that first. Smalley, is well intentioned from his previous positngs on our website but I think his assumptions are based on everything as it stands now. We have time to crack things before 27th Nov - more importantly the IOM govt have the opportunity if there is the will to mobilise all efforts. They are due to meet on Thursday - as it has been mentioned elsewhere - so lets wait for their statement before we draw our early conclusions.


Missing £557m

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:00

It seems to me that the key to this is within the UK. Surely it is not good enough to hear that E & Y are still concentrating on the Ing transfer. I would also be interested to hear the reasoning for concentrating on the Ing transfer. Was this E & Y's decision or is the UK Treasury the paymaster here. Let's not forget that people with savings being transferred to Ing are saved - what about the rest - surely that's important but perhaps the UK government just do not appreciate the human side to this.

One or two postings have been made suggesting that Mike Simpson may not have our best interests at heart. That may, or may not be the case, but what is 100% certain is that E & Y do not give a damn about us and our £557m or whatever the figure turns out to be.

Until the £557m is clarified there is no way that liquidation in the IOM can be avoided. Who would take on a bank with 2/3rds of the money posted missing !

Time will tell but what is clear to me is that the IOM government are looking to save the position. What about the UK government ? My thoughts are that they have no interest in us whatsoever and thay they will let us down badly at the end of the day - however time will tell !


I too am concerned about

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 10:06

I too am concerned about Earnst & Youngs focus on the ING transfers. I thought the role of an administrator was to treat all potential creditors equally. In this case one group is being given preferential treatment.


E&Y focus on ING...

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 17:35

From what I understand E&Y were tasked to resolve the issue of Edge retail deposits first. The Treasury basically underwrote 160,000 depositors at a stroke when moving them to ING. E&Y probably had quite a job making all those allocations and working out exactly who had what and where and how much etc to sort out these retail depositors. I guess ING knew they were OK from the big lump they got from the Treasury, but working out exacty how much of it was actually needed and its distribution likely takes time.

Once the retail deposits have been sorted they move on to the wholesale deposits (which regrettably includes our assets). All assets will need resolving and I imagine that must take some time; there are a few thousand non-Edge depositors who also need their accounts attending to in order for their compensation to be accurately paid out. It probably takes more time than we might imagine to perform these tasks and I can't really imagine that a deliberate policy is at work to sideline IoM savers. Things happen for reasons we may not possibly imagine.

I think that it has long been established that 'our' asset no longer exists as a single entity; Allan Bell said during the first week of this nightmare that our assets had been incorporated in the UK bank's domestic deposits. If (big) a legal means of returning these assets were to be found then they would not be 'our' assets as such, but equivalents in kind - this has also been hinted at by Chief Minister T Brown.

If the bank was as sound as PM Geir Haarde seemed to believe, and the amount of Treasury funding is replaced by Icelandic and FSCS (bank levy) guarantees, the total assets may be enough to pay a goodly amount to all creditors - something that some clearly believe going by recent announcements.

We are all so anxious and desperate for news that we end up imagining and speculating to fill-in the gaps. We need to keep a count-down towards Nov 27th, but hope that a little more time will reveal tangible answers.


Ice thanks for your clear insight - E&Y

  • 1log
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 17:57

Your post puts a positive spin on things for me that eventually there may be enough in the pot remaining after the 'edge' accounts are sorted. Hopefully this amount can be estimated sooner and a loan in some form is handed over to IOM to enable 100% return. They must have a plan before Nov 27th to keep KSFIOM alive.
It is still painful to understand that somehow our savings deposits are inferior in value to UK govt compared to the mainland ones. Trouble is the current govt thinks that it is OK to sacrifice a few to appease the majority. Collateral damage indeed.


This certainly isn't the

  • frog
  • 10/10/08 13/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 20:08

This certainly isn't the case! Please read the above posts.

The UK government paid ING the equivalent of all the Kaupthing UK retail depositors' balances. They then became an equal unsecured creditor in Kaupthing UK- just like us.

ING paid out the accounts and took on whomever wanted to stay with ING - and reported back to HMG exactly how much money they used. This is the amount that HMG is owed by Kaupthing UK.

E&Y were brought in as administrators and ALL the remaining depositors in the bank are treated the same (including HMG). They are sorting out the accounts - with the majority of them being the retail accounts plus working through other assets and liabilities. When this is done, they will likely tell all the depositors what is left and how much is realisable. Note that a large chunk of the assets will not be liquid, so they will have to do some work to value the assets and see if they can get buyers for them (or call them in)- so it will take some time.

Now whether this will be done prior to the 27th is rather unlikely, but what can be done is for E&Y to give the IOM Government an indication of the likely proceeds (they must have a reasonable idea by now within 10%) which will allow the IOM Govt to make a determination as to whether a run-down of assets would make sense or whether it is a lost cause.

My expectation is that the majority (if not all) of the assets will be realisable - but not wholly in cash, so the IOM government would need to transfer assets as well as cash from Kaupthing UK into Kaupthing IOM ready for controlled run-off. If they were feeling particularly bullish, they could use some of the cash to buy more of the assets (at the firesale price) and wait to run them down as well. This will make a strong profit assuming they pick solid assets, but will take longer to run down.


Frog, Just a small

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 21:29

Frog,
Just a small observation on what you wrote i.e. "ALL the remaining depositors in the bank are treated the same ............ retail accounts..."

This is a quote from Ernst 7 Young re KSFUK:
"All retail deposits which do not relate to Edge accounts will also be paid in full through the FSCS, but have not been transferred to ING Direct"

On a related subject Mike Simpson wrote on 20th Oct:"

"The meeting with the Administrators was very useful as we now have an agreed point of contact with them. They agreed to help us to reconcile the asset positions which we believe are held with them and to help determine the contractual arrangements"

As far as I'm aware he has not updated this statement so my question would be; have E&Y reconciled the asset positions ?and more importantly have they determined the "contractual arrangements" ? Does anyone think these questions have now been answered?


Does anyone know if all the

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 20:18

Does anyone know if all the assets in KSF UK have to be realized and then cash distributed to the creditors or could certain creditors be given assets to the value of their distribution.

This is something I had not realised before now.


Yes, this can be done, its

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 20:44

Yes, this concept is known as a "distribution in specie" - I am not sure how this interacts with the no preferential treatment principle.

I have only used this for dividend distributions not in an insolvency situation.


Distribution in specie

  • Ally
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 21:28

Yes, as Manx-Person says it can be done. Although I have never had experience of it in a liquidation.

I would assume if the creditor was happy to take an asset instead of cash it would be fine.

It should work under the non preferrential rule as the creditor would just make it know they are willing to take an asset instead of a cash dividend but would not take a higher % then they would have got in cash, freeing up more cash for those who want to take cash and so allowing a higher overall percentage interim distribution.

I must admit I love the Frog's idea, the IoM buy more assets then it needs from KSF UK to make a profit. Not contend with just getting his money back he wants to turn a profit!!


The creditor is the KSFIOM in

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 22:08

The creditor is the KSFIOM in this case. I had a quick look through the UK IA and it appears that there is a prescribed process for valuation and approval by the creditor cttee.

Clearly the difficulty is in the valuation of these non-cash assets and whether a creditor cttee would agree. there is also the complexities of conveyance of non-cash assets


You know this reminds me of

  • frog
  • 10/10/08 13/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 23:14

You know this reminds me of the old banking joke;

Previously Bankers worked on the 3:6:3 principle - they borrowed at 3%, lent at 6% and were home by 3pm - the system changed recently to the 6:3:3 principle, where the bankers borrowed at 6%, lent at 3% and were up until 3 in the morning wondering where all the money had gone!


Leverage against E&Y

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 11/11/2008 - 16:54

I agree that E&Y and what they are doing with regard to unsecured creditors in Kaupthing UK is essential. I find it very hard to believe that PWC as the administrator representing us in KSF IOM in discussions with with E&Y does not have a good idea what the position is.

Do we have any leverage with E&Y clearly not from a court/adminstration point of view but politically. Would it be useful to ask the TSC to put pressure on the Treasury and FSA as the sponsors of the administration of Kaupthing to give all creditors equal billing in their (E&Y) work as administrators.

If PWC really don't know anything, which I doubt, it would be useful for them to state this.


Guarded

  • nivit
  • 19/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 09/11/2008 - 14:43

Hi Diver could you expand on this as this is not the impression I got from my correspondance with Mr Todd nor from his intervention in the adjournment debate of Thurs. 6th?


Uk Citizens tax liabilities relating to offshore bank accounts

  • Colin M Phipps
  • 18/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 12:26

Having requested my Local derby North MP for representation regarding the issues relating to the Plight of the Kaupthing Singer and friedlander isle of man depositors.

His response did not again address the main issues. I had already attempted to post a brief summary regarding his reply. however, lost it due to un-noticed off line when posting.

This is my reply to him. Perhaps you can read between the lines.

Dear sir, M, Laxton
Thank you for your reply. With respect to the content, I can enlighten you as follows.

  1. The extent of the problem, is that I and many other UK residents, have had thier savings confiscated by the British government. This as far as i can determine, was enacted to ensure that other UK savers deposits were safe guarded when a number of Icelandic banks failed.

The extent of the complications in righting this matter, yes I agree, it is a very complex situation one that Hopefully the British Government is addressing in Iceland.

  1. My account with the Derbyshire Isle of man branch. Then susequently sold to Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander, was and hopefully still remains a base tracker account. Interest was paid at just slightly above all other on-shore savings accounts, however was variable. In fact higher interest rates were available with UK on-shore banks, prior to my account being frozen.

  2. The management or representative of the Derbyshire building society, Duffield, did not respond to my e-mail message to you, of which they were copied.

Perhaps they might reconsider, having been copied on this e-mail.

Before I persue any financial claim against the Derbyshire, I await the outcome of the Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander administartion court hearing, to be held in the Isle of Man 27th November 2008.

  1. Regarding my taxation liability to the British tax office. All interest paid to my Derbyshire - Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Isle of man bank account, was taxed at source and paid to the UK tax authorities. This was a mandatory procedure. Further more i return my UK tax statement, yearly to the UK tax office. As far as I am aware, the Isle of man banking system for Uk savers, most definately comes under the UK's financial and taxation system.

Regarding other foriegn citizens banking in the Isle of man, I do not know what, if any, thier tax liabilities are.

This reply was based on Mr. laxton's statement: Quote - I cannot see how you can hold the British Government to blame for the fate of those who have knowingly, or as you maintain, unknowingly, banked outside the UK's financial and taxation system. End quote.

It would appear to me that Mr laxton and no doubt a few of his fellow MP's, know very little about the Isle of Man banking regulations, related Uk tax liabilities Etc. Bears up to what others have misguidedly stated, that we are all tax dodgers !!!!!!!!!!!!! .

  1. I would ask that you kindly address these relevant points to the Right Honerable Alister Darling MP. To to be taken into consideration when he thinks long and hard, [ as he stated recently ] whether or not he can give assistance to the Isle of man government, and therefore indirectly to UK savers caught up in this dilema.

Also an address on these issues to the Right Honerable Mr. Jack Straw at the Ministry of Justice, would be much appreciated.


Statements

  • giveus backourfunds
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 12:10

I read that we will all be getting statements soon, I have not had a letter or statement from anone since this whole mess started, has anyone else received anyting or are we all still waiting for statements ?


Recent Developments

  • Stunned Mullet
  • 17/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 06:21

It would appear that in recent days that there has been a great deal of development, i.e:

  1. The TSC meeting and Mr. Darling's less than stellar performance; and
  2. The reaction of the IOM government to his comments relating to possible re-examination of the offshore status of some Crown dependancies; and
  3. The questions raised in the House of Commons on our behalf; and
  4. Chief Minister Brown's statement concerning a possible restructure or gradual wiinding down of KSGIOM: and
  5. The progress of the IMF loan and its associated requirements that include resolving its differences with the UK; and
  6. The reports that reflect the dialogue between London Fire Services and a local UK council with the administrator of KSF UK, E&Y where they have indicated that the assests of the UK branch of the bank appear to meet its liabilites.

I have noticed also some lack of direction to the postings in the last couple of days, possibly due to Diver and Expat not been logged on to steer discussions of import (no doubt they have been working tirelessly behind the scenes for us).

I think this would be a good moment to reflect on these developments and also, to remain focused and positive as to the direction we are moving in and the group's achievements. I presonally see all these devopments in a positive light.

The public exposure to our plight has been nothing short of spectacular. Led by the key individuals in the UK and IOM, a disparate set of predomnantly British (no offense ot anyone in the group who is not) savers scattered accross the globe have achieved recognition at the highest levels.

If the reports from the UK accurately reflect E&Y's dialogue with the council and London fire representatives, thee would appear to be every chance KSFIOM wil have its funds frozen on the UK returned. That in turn would allow KSGIOM to be would down and depositors to be repaid. That may well be linked to Mr. Brown's announcement. I would venture to suggest he would be in posession of better position than most, and likely have been briefed by our very own provisional liquidator Mr. Simpson. I'm not convinced that the IOM government just don't want to trigger the compensation scheme. It would do nothig for them both in the present, and in the future.

Mr. Brown is meeting with Jack Straw next week. Hopefully we can look further to more progress.

These are my humble thoughts/observations, but I would love to hear feedback from expat ad/or diver (and anyone else) on these points insofar as they may be able to comment without jeopardizing any dialogue in progress.


Priority

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 06:44

My number 1 priority on Monday morning will be to try to ascertain the validity of the comments regarding KSFUK and the councils. I have to urge caution here and I strongly believe we shouldn't get too excited about this but there may be at least a little bit of hope.

There is a big difference between a bank not being able to fulfil its obligations due to illiqidity and a bank being bust (for want of a better word). KSFUK may have been short of 'cash' which led to it being placed into administration but we have no visibility as to its other assets as at October 8. It is possible that there are assets available to E&Y that, on paper at least, would cover the banks liabilities. The main questions are: how much can these assets be sold for in the real world? and, what would be the timescale for these disposals?

My legal knowledge isn't the best, but I don't believe there is a situation where the councils could get paid out directly from the assets of KSFIOM in preference to us - this is a good thing.

Whilst we attempt to work out the truth behind these reports and whilst the IoM government contemplate their plan I would ask you to read my posting here:

http://www.ksfiomdepositors.org/forum-topic/we-need-be-so-very-careful-now


I'm encouraged by the news

  • markH
  • 12/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 08/11/2008 - 09:16

I'm encouraged by the news that KSF UK may have enough to pay back creditors, fingers crossed on that one, but how does this tally with Tony Brown's comments a couple of days ago when he seemed to accept defeat in the IOM's attempts to get back our £550M frozen in the UK?

Another point: would KSF IOM automatically be recognised as a creditor of KSF UK? There has been lots of mention of an 'inter-bank transfer' and I worry that this would not be considered as the same thing and KSFIOM would not be acknowledged as a creditor. Can anyone shed any light on this?