Frozen assets in UK

  • Ohdear
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
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Posted: Sun, 19/10/2008 - 22:41

It seems pretty clear that KSF(IOM) has about 600 Millions assets frozen in UK. Can someone explain to me does that mean this moeny will eventually be used to pay off depositors, or we don't know what will happen? I am very confused.

Thanks.

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John Aspen - Isle of Man funds priority

  • bushmen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 22/10/2008 - 14:31

John Aspen, Isle of Man Financial Services Commission Boss told Manx Radio's Mandate programme on Tuesday that the FSC intervened as early as Spring 2008 against the overnight transfer of KSFIoM funds to the bank's troubled and now nationalised Icelandic parent, Kaupthing hf, instituting an overnight transfer to London instead as a precaution.

Explaining that Douglas had not received an early warning of the United Kingdom government's decision to freeze KSF assets, Aspen said 'It could have been an oversight, it could have been a policy decision, I don't know … I think it was unfortunate that we were not taken into consideration when the assets of the London (KSF) bank was frozen (but) the idea of lifting the money out and giving it to the Isle of Man may have been seen as giving priority'.

Aspen said the FSC is currently in negotiations with HMG to unfreeze KSFIoM deposits.
For more info, see Manx Radio, Mandate (Tuesday)

http://www.lostyoursavings.co.uk/forum/information-exchange/iom-banks-bo...


this seems positive

  • bushmen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 22/10/2008 - 14:57

this seems positive...


Angela - Do you have

  • Joker59
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 09:24

Angela - Do you have specialist knowledge to say that inter bank loans have preference in a liquidation. Would it not depend on the nature of the bond or security (if any) that KSFIOM have with KSFUK to acknowledge the debt.


KSF UK in administration

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 22:42

KSF UK is in administration itself, which is why all the money there is frozen. It is not yet known how much of the c.£600m will be returned to the Isle of Man, or when, as this depends on the administration process.


Did we ever manage to find

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 22:44

Did we ever manage to find out precisely in what form or type of account that money is in?
I remember there were some issues regarding whether it was segregated etc...


Find the account

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:33

Allan Bell said yesterday on Radio Manx that the money was mixed with the UK domestic deposits - he went on to say that another route must be taken to 'round the square' (paraphrase). What do you beagles think he meant?


find the account

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:38

Dunno Icecrusher. I suppose he means that its a game of two halves and if we do not succeed we run the risk of failure.... (al gore i think)


find the account

  • Anonymous
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:35

Possibly "square the circle". I suggest that he may perhaps not know what he is talking about.


Type of account

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 23:03

No, that point hasn't been clarified. However, it is almost certainly in a wholesale deposit account, and would not have been segregated - KSF UK would have taken it into their general pot to invest or loan onwards in order to earn the interest KSF IOM would have needed. I can see no reason why they would have segregated it.


how do we know

  • Anonymous
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:37

Do we know that for sure that the money is held by KSF(UK) and was not lent elsewhere?


Money

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:44

Money isn't an easily definable substance in that way - it is fungible, and would have effectively gone into the KSF UK pot.

It's a bit like saying "Well, KSF IoM has £103m, and my money is part of that bit, not part of the £600m in the UK"...

So even if there is £600m sitting in KSF UK, it isn't a case of saying whose £600m that is.


wheres the money

  • cathy
  • 10/10/08 10/10/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:16

i thought the 600 million that went to the uk ended up ing nv, when they steped in. hope iam wrong!
cathy.


It didn't

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:35

No KSF money was transferred to ING. All £3bn that ING got came from the British taxpayer via HM Treasury.


And the dutch government

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:51

And the dutch government still ended up bailing out Kaupthing in the UK....

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/19/business/ing.php

So much for a "strong"bank.


Probably why they wanted Kaupthing Edge

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 02:56

Probably why they wanted Kaupthing Edge - it was after all an entire £3bn of liquid funds!


Yes, with £600M+ of it being

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 03:07

Yes, with £600M+ of it being ours.


possibly captain possibly!

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 22/10/2008 - 15:57

possibly captain possibly!


It didn't

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 03:23

No.... see above:It didn't


UK Company

  • jane maloney
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 05:34

Am I not correct to say that the £600m is not ringfenced and it is just an ordinary creditor within the UK bank. If the UK bank has more assets than liabilities then all should be ok and the £600m returned to IOM and then on to us.

If there is a deficit within the UK then that's where we may end up in trouble especially if a lot of the UK's assets are in Iceland and prove non recoverable.

What a mess !!


I hate to say this, but.....

  • brokefirefly
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:02

If the Kaupthing UK bank had more assets than liabilities, wouldn't it still be trading? I thought that the licence was removed when it ceased to have enough assets to meet it's liabilities...........I have NEVER heard of anyone getting all of their money back from a liquidation: the assets are sold off at the best price that can be obtained on the spot, i.e. usually a huge discount. The services of the liquidator are taken out of the pot before creditors are paid, and liquidators never come cheap. We still want all of our money back, but the solution is political here, just as the decision to force Kaupthing UK into administration may have been somewhat political.


they had plenty of assets

  • cathy
  • 10/10/08 10/10/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 07:18

ksf iom couldnt meet their liabilities, only because uk goverment froze ksf uk accounts where ksf iom had their/our money.


Not frozen

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 11:23

KSF UK accounts were not, at any point, frozen by the UK government. The bank was merely put into administration.


UK Company - Reply To Jane

  • Angela
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:01

Jane as far as I know the 600m is not ringfenced and when Kaupthing UK is liquidated KSF IOM will be a creditor, however other banks take precedent in the liquidation process (over retail/business accounts/creditors) so KSF IOM should get all of that money back (along with any other banks that are owed money by Kaupthing UK), then whatever is leftover is divided pro rata - Ernest & Young's initial estimates are 50 pence in the pound BUT KSF IOM should get all of it's money back. The only issue is whether all the funds were actually with Kaupthing UK at the time it was frozen- who knows what they might have done with them (hopefully not sent it back to headoffice in Iceland) but according to the staff at KSF IOM it's in the UK.


Are there any insovency

  • expatfrance1
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:57

Are there any insovency practitioners reading these postings who might be able to offer some idea as where in the list of creditors Kaupthing IOM deposits might come.

Also would this also not depend on whether these took the form of an inter-bank loan or a wholesale deposit?


UK Company

  • Mrs Not Too Happy
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 06:22

I must say that I was not aware that other banks take precedent in liquidation either.

At 50p in the £ there must have been a big whole in the UK company


O shite! Lets hope this is

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 05:36

O shite!

Lets hope this is NOT the case positive thinking!


liquidation ?

  • cathy
  • 10/10/08 10/10/09
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  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 07:08

can anybody tell me if ksf iom was liquidated before ksf uk, would it make any difference to us one way or another,or wouldnt it be possible anyway?