FINAL PETITION - SIGNUP

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Sun, 19/10/2008 - 03:42

I've reposted the final petition below: read it and sign up asap by sending an email to:

ksfisleofman(?)gmail [dot] com - first initial, surname. All members of your families effected by this situation should sign too.

The petition is to be delivered on Monday to both the Iom & UK Governments....

THE FINAL PETITION

We the undersigned, depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (IOM) Ltd, contend that the Governments of the United Kingdom, The Isle of Man and Iceland have acted irresponsibly, unfairly and in a discriminatory manner towards depositors in said bank in that:
1. The UK Government’s actions in freezing Icelandic assets in the UK directly led to the failure and subsequent administration of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander UK (KSF UK) which up to then had been a solvent and liquid entity. This entity held significant assets belonging to Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man (KSF IoM) in the form of an intercompany loan. The UK Government’s actions therefore prevented KSF IoM from accessing funds that were rightfully its own and, as a result, from discharging its obligations to depositors resulting in the bank’s license being suspended and a provisional liquidator being appointed.
2. The UK Government has declared plans to ‘guarantee all savings’ whilst failing to do so in certain cases. UK taxpayer funds are being used to support numerous financial institutions on the UK mainland: however, those institutions offshore in Crown Dependencies are excluded. The result of this is that there are UK taxpayers, who have contributed to the pool of funds now being used to guarantee onshore savings, left without support from the Government they support financially through taxation.

3. The Isle of Man is a Crown Dependency, with Her Majesty the Queen as Head of State and is part of the British Isles, yet British Citizens holding British passports, who banked with KSF IoM have been treated in a different and unfair manner to those banking with KSF UK.
4. The UK Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs have used European Union laws to obtain records of British nationals who bank offshore for the purpose of collecting taxes. It is disappointing to depositors that the UK Government has distanced itself from any involvement in this time of crisis. If depositors can be taxed directly by the UK Government in the Isle of Man then surely they should be protected directly as well.
5. The Isle of Man Government has failed to act in parallel with other governments around the world to protect the interests of depositors in its jurisdiction.
6. The Isle of Man Government has failed to safeguard the Island’s reputation and credibility as a secure, safe jurisdiction for bank deposits.
7. The Government of Iceland, having nationalised Kaupthing Hf, has failed in its duty to honour the parental guarantee issued by the bank to depositors in KSF IoM.
8. The Government of Iceland has guaranteed 100% of all its own national depositors’ savings but has apparently chosen to exclude depositors in overseas branches and subsidiaries of Icelandic banks including KSF IoM. This is the equivalent of placing a ranking system on all unsecured creditors which, by law, are all ranked equally. A possible result of this is that KSF IoM funds are used to fund the bail out of Iceland’s domestic banking system whilst leaving KSF IoM depositors destitute.
9. It appears that the Prime Minister of Iceland misled depositors in Kaupthing Hf, its subsidiaries (of which KSF IoM is one) and the international press, by stating that the bank was, to his knowledge, not in difficulties. The fact that the Prime Minister nationalised Kaupthing Hf the next day would strongly indicate otherwise.
The above points lead us, as depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man, to the following conclusions:
• The recent actions of both the UK and Icelandic governments have resulted in the loss of millions of pounds to depositors in KSF IoM.
• It is the duty of the UK Government as both catalyst for our losses and as the government responsible for the foreign affairs of the Isle of Man to protect and guarantee our interests.
• The Isle of Man Depositors Compensation Scheme is discriminatory as it, according to the island’s regulators, excludes small businesses from claiming compensation, resulting in 100% losses for those depositors.
We, the undersigned depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man, therefore demand the following:
1. That the Prime Minister confirms in a statement that UK Government is seeking the return of 100% of all deposits held within KSF IoM (even in the event that KSF IoM is wound up) and considers that to be the only satisfactory outcome.
2. That the UK government requests the administrators of KSF UK release all assets belonging to KSF IoM in order that it may seek to resume its normal operations.
3. That the Isle of Man Government, without undue delay, reinstates KSF IoM’s banking license to enable it to resume its normal operations.
4. That the UK Government, in conjunction with the IoM Government, implements the same 100% guarantee for all depositors’ money in KSF IoM as has been afforded to other KSF depositors.
5. That the Icelandic Government, as primary stakeholder and controller of Kaupthing Hf, acknowledges its duty to honour the parental guarantee given by Kaupthing Hf to all KSF IoM depositors.
6. That the Icelandic Government ensures that any entity taking control of Kaupthing Hf or any new entity arising out of the assets of Kaupthing Hf is required to honour the original guarantee given to depositors of KSF IoM by Kaupthing Hf.

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Response from 10 Downing Street

  • iomillie
  • 13/10/08 30/09/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Tue, 04/11/2008 - 15:35

We have received a response to the petition, dated 31 October, which reads as follows:

The Prime Minister has asked me to thank you for your recent letter and petition. The views that you have expressed have been carefully noted.

Mr Brown would like to reply to you personally, but as you may know, he received many thousands of letters each week and his many duties mean he must ask Government Departments to reply on his behalf. He does appreciate the time that people take to write to him.

The Prime Minister has asked that I pass your letter and petition to the Ministry of Justice so that they are aware of your views and may reply to the detailed points raised in your letter.

Yours sincerely

Mr R Smith

I will let you know when we get a response from the Ministry of Justice


Petition Intro for IOM:

  • LifeSavingsGone
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 20/10/2008 - 08:43

This may be a bit late in the day – apologies – Ive been off line - , but here are my thoughts on the matter. (These points compliment (not conflict) the existing petition - so I dont think that it would be necessary to get everyone to re-sign, re-petition. Introduction can be spliced into exiting petition wording. If anyone strongly disagrees, then you can contact admin to have yr name removed. Thoughts?? Rgrds LIFESAVINGSGONE.

Proposed Introduction to Petition IOM Fiscus, Tynwald, Mr Simpson – Head of Treasury:

The Kaupthing Singer and Friedlender IOM ("KSF") Action Group represents concerned depositors and investors who have each saved in KSF IOM. As at 10am on Monday 20 October 2008, 779 registered members have participated in the "how much do we stand to lose" survey. Those members who have taken the survey represent potential losses in FSF of GBP 174.5 million.

The strong positive cash flows from these deposits have fuelled the prosperity of the Manx economy and most of this liquidity has found its way to The City. This long term liquidity from the Channel Islands has contributed to The City emerging as the leading global financial hub.

Whilst the rest of the world has pledged significant and meaningful support to their banking systems, the KSF IOM depositors CONTEND THAT WE have been abandoned.

We draw reference to the salvage mission that has become the global template for the rescue of the banking system by every significant financial centre around the globe.

George Bush, Gordon Brown, the German Government, the G7 and the rest of Europe are all pledging financial support for the state rescue of banks and recapitalization of the financial system. Norway is swapping $55bn government bonds for distressed debt.

Ben Berbabke, Fed chairman has pledged $250 billion for the recapitalisation and sovereign guarantee of bank debt in the most sweeping intervention in US history.

While the IOM FSC and Tynwald have increased the Depositors Compensation Scheme (DCS) to GBP50 000, this does nothing* for international depositors into KSF , on whose coattails, the prosperity of IOM economy has flourished.

[*It is our [recent] understanding that trusts and companies are not covered by DCS]

While FSC and Tynwald have been quick (perhaps too quick) to act in placing KSF into suspension, the IOM government's silence regarding financial support for KSF is deafening. You have allowed Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander IOM Ltd to fall into the wrong hands, without proper support, capitalisation. The KSF default happened under your supervision and you must take some responsibility.

Both Icelandic and UK Kaupthing depositors appear to be in an advantageous position compared to the KSF IOM depositors - thanks to prompt and meaningful fiscal support and intervention by the regulators in those countries.

KSF is going to leave an indelible black mark against the name of IOM, and permanently damage your ability to attract investments.

You appear to be forsaking the investors that helped build your economy. The time has come for IOM to show the naysayers that you are not a pass-through conduit, empty-vessel haven, show your colours and step up to the plate with meaningful financial support - follow Iceland's example – for example - take control of KSF*, issue long-dated depositors loss compensation bonds (“LCB’s”) to be serviced out of a Tynwald lein on abandoned, unclaimed investments. Offer depositors a Norwegian style LCB for KSF swap. Do something meaningful and meaty.

*Less than 3 weeks ago, on 22 September 2008 Qatar bought 5% share in Kaupthing (Iceland) for GBP155m, placing a value on Kaupthing of GBP3.1billion. The stake in KSF IOM must be worth a fortune in IOM’s hands when this financial crisis abates.

The Depositors Compensation Scheme is in our view a smokescreen by which the IOM Fiscus is attempting to obfuscate your responsibility to pledge meaningful financial support to distressed IOM debtors. By excluding corporates and trusts from the DCS, and by limiting the DCS to GBP 50 000 you are excluding the majority 1.e. 80% of KSF deposits, which we estimate average approximately GBP210 000. We estimate that by excluding companies and trusts, and by capping the DCS at GBP50 000, the DCS will only be at risk to pat out a maximum of 5% of the depositors value in KSF. Furthermore, DCS only pays as last resort – after all other KSF assets have been distributed, so the likely contribution by DCS to depositors is likely to be in the very low single percentages. IOM Fiscus is not at risk 1p in respect of the DCS as it will be levied on future investors to be withheld by the banks. We therefore contend that the DCS is a smokescreen and a sham whereby IOM fiscus is obfuscating your true responsibility to underwrite IOM distressed debt, a situation for which you are partly responsible.]

Time has come for IOM to stop deferring responsibility to the UK courts and pointing fingers at Iceland and place some proper ficscal financial support behind the IOM distressed debt issue.

We further contend: [rest of petition follows]:

that the Governments of the United Kingdom, The Isle of Man and Iceland have acted irresponsibly, unfairly and in a discriminatory manner towards depositors in said bank in that:
1. The UK Government’s actions in freezing Icelandic assets in the UK directly led to the failure and subsequent administration of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander UK (KSF UK) which up to then had been a solvent and liquid entity. This entity held significant assets belonging to Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man (KSF IoM) in the form of an intercompany loan. The UK Government’s actions therefore prevented KSF IoM from accessing funds that were rightfully its own and, as a result, from discharging its obligations to depositors resulting in the bank’s license being suspended and a provisional liquidator being appointed.
2. The UK Government has declared plans to ‘guarantee all savings’ whilst failing to do so in certain cases. UK taxpayer funds are being used to support numerous financial institutions on the UK mainland: however, those institutions offshore in Crown Dependencies are excluded. The result of this is that there are UK taxpayers, who have contributed to the pool of funds now being used to guarantee onshore savings, left without support from the Government they support financially through taxation.

3. The Isle of Man is a Crown Dependency, with Her Majesty the Queen as Head of State and is part of the British Isles, yet British Citizens holding British passports, who banked with KSF IoM have been treated in a different and unfair manner to those banking with KSF UK.
4. The UK Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs have used European Union laws to obtain records of British nationals who bank offshore for the purpose of collecting taxes. It is disappointing to depositors that the UK Government has distanced itself from any involvement in this time of crisis. If depositors can be taxed directly by the UK Government in the Isle of Man then surely they should be protected directly as well.
5. The Isle of Man Government has failed to act in parallel with other governments around the world to protect the interests of depositors in its jurisdiction.
6. The Isle of Man Government has failed to safeguard the Island’s reputation and credibility as a secure, safe jurisdiction for bank deposits.
7. The Government of Iceland, having nationalised Kaupthing Hf, has failed in its duty to honour the parental guarantee issued by the bank to depositors in KSF IoM.
8. The Government of Iceland has guaranteed 100% of all its own national depositors’ savings but has apparently chosen to exclude depositors in overseas branches and subsidiaries of Icelandic banks including KSF IoM. This is the equivalent of placing a ranking system on all unsecured creditors which, by law, are all ranked equally. A possible result of this is that KSF IoM funds are used to fund the bail out of Iceland’s domestic banking system whilst leaving KSF IoM depositors destitute.
9. It appears that the Prime Minister of Iceland misled depositors in Kaupthing Hf, its subsidiaries (of which KSF IoM is one) and the international press, by stating that the bank was, to his knowledge, not in difficulties. The fact that the Prime Minister nationalised Kaupthing Hf the next day would strongly indicate otherwise.
The above points lead us, as depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man, to the following conclusions:
• The recent actions of both the UK and Icelandic governments have resulted in the loss of millions of pounds to depositors in KSF IoM.
• It is the duty of the UK Government as both catalyst for our losses and as the government responsible for the foreign affairs of the Isle of Man to protect and guarantee our interests.
• The Isle of Man Depositors Compensation Scheme is discriminatory as it, according to the island’s regulators, excludes small businesses from claiming compensation, resulting in 100% losses for those depositors.
We, the undersigned depositors in Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Isle of Man, therefore demand the following:
1. That the Prime Minister confirms in a statement that UK Government is seeking the return of 100% of all deposits held within KSF IoM (even in the event that KSF IoM is wound up) and considers that to be the only satisfactory outcome.
2. That the UK government requests the administrators of KSF UK release all assets belonging to KSF IoM in order that it may seek to resume its normal operations.
3. That the Isle of Man Government, without undue delay, reinstates KSF IoM’s banking license to enable it to resume its normal operations.
4. That the UK Government, in conjunction with the IoM Government, implements the same 100% guarantee for all depositors’ money in KSF IoM as has been afforded to other KSF depositors.
5. That the Icelandic Government, as primary stakeholder and controller of Kaupthing Hf, acknowledges its duty to honour the parental guarantee given by Kaupthing Hf to all KSF IoM depositors.
6. That the Icelandic Government ensures that any entity taking control of Kaupthing Hf or any new entity arising out of the assets of Kaupthing Hf is required to honour the original guarantee given to depositors of KSF IoM by Kaupthing Hf.

[PETITION END]

[Statistically, I am reasonably confident that we are able to make the statement that the GBP 174.5 million number is 95% accurate within a confidence level of +/- GBP9m. All other stats should be accurate to within 95% confidence interval


Publish and be dammed

  • Maud
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 17:39

It is time to finalise the petition and the negatives need to stop. The petition shows we are organised and motivated and sends out the right message. If we design a petition to suit everyone then it will take forever. Sign up everyone. Sorry guys we cannot hop on a plane and come over and join you in London, so a big thank you to those that do go. We will be thinking of you an eagerly await reportback. Lins-in-da-bush


PETITION SIGN UP

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:29

Sign ups are coming in thick and fast, around 70 in the last hour.

keep it up, the more we have the better the impact.

malc


petition

  • banna
  • 15/10/08 01/03/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:47

We 3 have recently signed.
One of us will be there if we can, but have some problems. But PLEASE do not cancel it or change the time (12 noon) because we have told several journalists - tv,radio,newspaper- and asked them to cover it. If the petition isn't there we'll get some very bad press !


PETITION

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:50

banna,

don't worry the petition is going to be delivered at both UK and IoM.

lots of people have said they will be at both meeting points, so there should be a good turnout.

Need to keep the petition in the posts.....and get as many as possible to sign up
malc


Sleeplessnight, Jenren, Diver

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:34

have you been able to receive my emails??

malc


URGENT

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:05

at thisd end we are unhappy that the petitiopn still has a major crack at theManx gov poinyts 5 and 6, as it is not the case, please confirm they are deleted


PETITION

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:09

Expat, points 5 & 6 have both been changed......they haven't been deleted as the majority feel that the IoM government need to be aware they have a responsibility.

malc


the iom did what they had to!

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:11

the iom did what they had to! Okay change it and tone it down


petition

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:18

Expat,

Bear in mind over 700 people have agreed the petition as it stands, and agree that the IoM Government have to take some responsibility to put things right, so we can't go making sweeping changes.

However, it has been toned down and Diver, Sleeplessnight are looking at it and will repost....

malc


PETITION changes

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:11

Expat, need to wait for Diver & Sleeplessnight to post the redraft.

malc


thanks i don't want to lose

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:12

thanks i don't want to lose the support we've worked so hard to get


Successful Petition Delivery

  • JS
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 13:14

Congratulations everyone. The petition delivery will be a great. I would be there but I’m in oz. Here are some suggestions to ensure it’s successful:
(1) Those who are going try and take as many family and friends as possible, the larger the group the larger the impact.
(2) Make colourful, large, eye-catching placards with dramatic statements. The press will like that. I’ve thought of a couple ideas. “Mr Brown is a Thief”, “PM you have my money” etc.
(3) If anyone knows someone famous try and get them to attend, this will gain more media attention.
(4) Someone take a megaphone and read out the petition statement at No. 10, this will get passer-bys stopping and visually increase the size of the group.
(5) Someone needs to take a ‘press packet’ for the media, i.e. copies of the petition and the press release that was issued earlier etc. Designate someone to hand them out and get reporters' names and contact information so we can follow up with them.
(6) take whistles, horns etc to make a noise; a silent protest will go unnoticed.


PETITION SIGN UP

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 10:51

we now have over 500 sign ups for the petition.

I'm sure there are more out there. The main problem seems to be not being able to find the thread.............. NG can you help fix it to the home page?

its 12 noon in the UK, we've got a few more hours to get as many signups as possible.

malc


Ng..Petition sign up

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:16

Do we not have the capability of sending a single e-mail out to everybody who's registered,urging them to vote ??


Help !!!!

  • The Biggest Ban...
  • 10/10/08 14/07/15
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 11:42

I want to help but have no idea what to do ???? Can't find out how to join the petition ???? Can't find out who is meeting where and when in London ???? Some mails say 10 am, some say 12 midday, some say 4 pm ???? How on earth are people supposed to help when it is impossible to find out information ???? This site started out really good but now seems to be very disjointed and almost impossible to understand !!!! Please help !!!!


mj,

  • jenren
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 14:31

Look at the banner at the top of the page. It now tells us time and date for the london meeting.

Will be great to see people there


Victims of our own success!

  • Wanda
  • 12/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 11:47

The sheer volume of postings on this site is a clear sign that the word is getting out there. That's the great news. The bad news is that it does take some navigating through the various channels to find the place where we want to be. If in doubt I always head to the top of the page to "All Forums" I decide what it is I want to do - sign the petition, get involved with the media, etc. etc. and click on the relevant forum within ALL FORUMS. Works for me!


Wading through the site

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 11:52

Something which everybody can do to help is to remember to start a new topic (link at top right) rather than use a comment, when you really are starting a new topic (as opposed to maybe a quick digression.) Also, moan at other people when they fail to do this!

New site features coming along soon to help with this issue for the future, but I can't solve the historic problem. Analogy: if you mix your salt and sugar together in the same jar, later you realise that you should have had too jars. Bad analogy, you would just through the old stuff away - we can't do that of course.

Don't forget you can search the site, too.


PETITION - look at 'actions/FINAL PETITION - SIGN UP'

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 11:44

petition is posted at 'actions/final petition - sign up'

malc


PETITION SIGN UP

  • AJM UAE
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 09:29

At the risk of repeating what others have suggested, we need to get this petition on the front page of the website so that it's immediately visible to everyone. We need the maximum number of signatories possible before Monday. Thanks for the hard work in creating the petition.


PETITION - Iceland

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:06

Anybody out there in Iceland willing to deliver the petition to the PM there??

malc


Try DHL

  • softlad66
  • 10/10/08 27/04/11
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:49

nm


PETITION

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:45

Are those who signed on Friday and Saturday being asked to sign again, or to refrain from duplicating ?


PETITION SIGN UP

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:49

bobby shafted,

no need to sign up again if you have already done so. What we would like is that everyone registered to the site signs up to the petition.

There are people in UK and IoM who are going to deliver it on Monday. We need to get as many names on it as possible.

To that end we need to keep in the forefront of the posts.....

I suggest that every post ends with

'read the petition at: actions/Final Petition - Sign up/..........then sign up'

malc


Petition Problems

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 06:53
  1. We don't know that the Isle of Man govt has failed to act with other governments or failed to safeguard the Island. In fact recent comments from Allan Bell in a very constructive meeting suggest that the IoM Government has done exactly what is required of it: http://www.ksfiomdepositors.netgenius.co.uk/?q=node/318. The IoM government is an ally who shares a similar vested interest with KSF depositors. It might be wise not to allienate them.

  2. I genuinely hope that all corporate depositors obtain full recovery, but did not the IoM compensation scheme exclude corporate depositors at the time of the deposit? Are we seeking justice or a retroactive change of the rules?

  3. How on earth can the IoM govt reinstate KSF IoM's banking license and enable normal operations when the vast majority of its assets are frozen or seized in the UK and probably Iceland?

With the greatest of respect, this petition needs work. Blair


Petition Problems

  • mikeinfrance
  • 12/10/08 28/09/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 16:58

Fully agree with 1&2 As regards 3 Since we know that approx £600M is in the UK shouldn't we be pushing as much as possible for some intervention from the government to get those funds repatriated to the IOM ASAP? I understand that they were never actually frozen as such but have got caught up in the problem of the UK branch being in administration.Obviously we know the the provisional liquidator is trying to get his hands on them but I suppose that could take some time unless the treasury intervenes What do you think??.


Agreed. I urge you too to

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 13:10

Agreed. I urge you too to rework this to avoid CRITCISM of the IOM gov and rather call upon them to act quickly now achive the desired result with HMG. The link we have opend up with Allan Bell is useful and I would hate to damage that.

Agreed also re 3) above. By all means call for "urgent steps to be taken to unfreeze the assets so that the banking licence might be reinstated" (or words to that effect)

Good work otherwise tho. Well done


iom resposibility

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:26

Whilst we may have slightly different takes on strategy, we should keep in mind the common object. Please let us not fall out..

I agree with Malc insofar that neither IOM nor the banks would want to see future banking industry on the island die. Therefore it is right to keep up pressure on IOM and through media channels, the latter tactic gaining great strength in the last days.

I agree Blair, its questionable what actual pressure IOM can put on UK and in this case most of us don't know if they are giving 10% or 100% of effort but we should keep up the media exposue. As I have said before I believe our group should, amongst other wonderful things we are doing, act as a scarecrow against future putative IOM savers. This act may help to galvanise efforts by IOM goverment and banks in case it is currently less than 100%.

I'll finish by saying how grateful I am to all of you who are working so tirelessly on behalf of all of us.


We're not looking for a

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:39

We're not looking for a change of rules............all we want (and I'm assuming WE means ALL of us) is our money back

malc


Rule Change

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:22

No? Really? I thought corporates were excluded from the guarantee? But you seem to be "demanding" that they be included - retroactively even. If I were a corporate depositor I might request the kind consideration of the IoM on this matter. But I probably wouldn't flat out attack their efforts and then demand that they change a rule they are not obligated to change. Try this: go poke someone in the eye, then ask them for a fiver. Is it me? Am I missing something? Blair


one last comment

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:31

bblair, your said 'you seem to be demanding'

actually the petition was a collective effort.........not just mine. All i did was do the original draft.

Its Sunday, tomorrow, the petition is being delivered...........you can offer your support or not, entirely up to you.

But please for the sake of everyone who has agreed that this is going to happen, if you are not going to support it, then please don't post anymore negative comments. This only serves to divide and ultimately to fail

malc


missing the point

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:25

BBlair,

You're missing the point...............individuals want there money back and so do small businesses, ie everyone wants their money back. Most small businesses keep their personal money in their business account.

If you are content with just receiving compensation, fine, a lot of people aren't.

malc


Good luck with that

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:29

I really wish you the best of luck and a 100% recovery for all... corporates too. Blair


I.O.M. did what it could

  • carnel
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:31

I think that the drafters of the petition have done a wonderful job but I agree with Blair about the I.O.M. What more could the I.O.M. authorities reasonably have done? In fact they acted with commendable speed re the 50K compensation limit which was as far as most countries were prepared to go at the time. And yet they are not an independent country and HAVE to go through the UK in approaching Iceland. I would suggest that the I.O.M. sections be removed or adapted to show greater understanding of the situation that the island authorities found themselves in.


Sure, IoM isn't responsible

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:30

Sure, IoM isn't responsible for the mess, but I haven't seen much action out of them since - is this what we expect?


IOM Action

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:48

Did you read the minutes of the meeting with Allan Bell yesterday? There were strong words. Sound actions. Excellent plans. And goodwill towards KSF depositors. Just one quote: "Allan assured us that there are extensive ongoing discussions at many levels between IOM and UK Governments and the Icelandic Government. He also stressed that he was “making strong representations through the appropriate channels to effect a speedy solution” He emphasised again that his “ultimate aim was to get every penny back” (for depositors)." I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but so far we have no cause to assail the IoM govt. Blair


I’m sure this has been

  • z1000000
  • 16/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 09:16

I’m sure this has been pointed out, but the IOM had £2.7million in KSF. It seems many of the ministers also had money in, and the IOM water board had plenty saved there.

I think the IOM leaders interest is in looking after their own money and backs and jobs, well before they loose any sleep over my or your savings.

Check out this-

http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27584&st=90


IOM action

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:56

sadly bblair, most of us aren't willing for you to be proved wrong.....

'myself and my mother deeply affected, lost everything', that's a quote from a member who has just signed up to the petition.

I feel for them and their loss. I want IoM government to feel it too. If that means making the IoM government uncomfortable then so be it.

As for assailing them, no one has suggested that..........

malc


IOM have NOT done what they could

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:36

Sorry, you guys need to look at this more closely...........

They are independent, they have their own government. Why are you all so concerned about the IOM government's feelings?????

Look at the posts of those whose lives have been devastated..........

Virtually ALL countries have guaranteed their banks 100%...........one of the ONLY BANKS IN THE WORLD to be going BUST is KSF ISLE OF MAN........

What more could they have done????? Simple, they could have put enough pressure on the UK et al to get the banks on the IOM and in particular KSF a 100% guarantee..........

Aren't you interested in that???

malc


Seriously?

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:11

Your suggesting that a government of a country about the size of Scunthorp should act independently in international affairs when a) it doesn't have a diplomatic corps and b) the UK has already agreed to defend its interests? The IOM should just go flailing around on its own in foreign waters stepping on the UKs toes?

And it should have used its immense strength to put "enough pressure on the UK" to get us a 100% guarantee? Or else what?

And how do you know that it isn't doing all it can to put all reasonable pressure on the UK. This approach of assuming the worst of our allies just because we are out of pocket is not helpful at all. As stated above, they moved quick to increase the deposit guarantee to 50k - not bad. They retroactively applied that did they not to KSF - they didn't have to. They've quickly petitioned for the UKs assistance - because they have a grip on reality and they know that this fracus puts them OUT of THEIR DEPTH.

I'm all for attacking governements through proper channels if I feel they have let me down. I don't know that yet with respect to IoM and I suggest you don't either. Blair


Actually, I am suggesting

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:27

Actually, I am suggesting that the IoM should be a much more capable than it has been, or, shut up shop for banking.
They have done nothing apart from waffle to date, I want to hear positive statement and ssurances and more importantly to see actions fom them.

They have been quick enough to live off the revenue, now it's time to take the responsibility.


Seriously

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:22

Not sure whose side you are on in this.........definitely the IOM government.

The IOM is reponsible for its own internal affairs. The government ultimately is responsible for international representation. As an international financial centre (the leading offshore jurisdiction, at least until now) it has immense strength.

No one has used the term 'or else', no one is threatening anyone. But to say they have done everything is as bad as to say they have done nothing.... no one is saying they have done nothing, we're saying we want them to do more.

I would suggest that you are in the minority if you feel that you have not been let down by the IOM. When do you want to wait to find out???

A petition is exactly that, a way of letting the government(s) know that we are not happy with the situation and that we want more done.

Instead of being critical of everyones efforts, it would be better for us all to give our 100% support.

malc


with the greatest respect

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 07:12

Blair................you've waited a hellofa long time to come up with this!!!!!!

Good idea, lets forget about the petition...............lets forget about doing anything other than sit on our hands.......lets just leave it to the UK to sort out.....if ever.

If the IoM was an ally, we wouldn't still be facing the liquidator..........

Don't know where you guys are coming from.....You seem determined to help the IoM keep out of the press.

You have taken one point...........instead of taking it in conjunction with the rest. Unfreeze the assets, reinstate the license.................

malc


i can see the need to step in here

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:35

firstly bblair is saying nothing that has not been said by us for a week Malc.
let me give you a story shall I, this is what has happened.
The UK gov took action agianst Iceland, they used the Terrorist Laws to do it, the FSA took that action from UK, they did not tell the FSC on IoM of the action, the IOM knew when you knew! When it broke in the press, which explains why i knew more than KSF IOM as we emailed on my way heree.
the britgov have a duty to reperesent the iom in international negotiations, the iom as soon as they were aware went through channels to get that assistance and let the FSA know we existed, because its obvious the boys and girls of the FSA had not picked that up, as has been exposed in the press more than once since thwe bankib crisis, bankers are cleverer than regulators. That message did not get through qickly, it took time, there were delays on UK side
It is beause we sort of analysed that as the situation pretty quickly that we acted as we did, we have in various ways said all this before perhaps not as coherently, but c'mon we're all working on the run here.
So the iom are not the enemy, they do what they could, they are a little dinghy in a tornado. they ae doing their best for us, telling us what they can, such as there is no money lost yet, our ire should be directed where it needs to be, the Treasury, the FSA and Downing street, for taking an action in haste anmd not checking the detail, its the sort of thing i sack people for to be frank.

the iom know they aere sunk without a trace becaue of this and that the iom will be a sheep farm again soon
YEs we got caught in a crossfire and error compounded error it seesm, we slipped through the cracks and ALL the cracks are in UK!!
does that expalin it all please?


Appreciation

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 14:09

Appreciate your wise councel expat - and thanks for the great effort you guys are putting in over there.

PS Petition signed three days ago.


I'll say it again

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:47

Expat, bblair,

No one is blaming the IoM government for what happened. Whether or not they have done enough is a matter of debate, one for which we do not have time, if we are to get this petition to the authorities.

Whether the IoM government brought it to the attention of the UK or not (and they did), is not the point. the point is that they MUST accept responsibility for what has happened. They know what will happen to the IoM as an offshore financial centre if the bank ultimately fails and I'm pretty sure that scares them.

No one is advocating that we go out and beat them up, with banners or otherwise, but a peaceful, polite delivery of a document which lets them know how we as depositors feel is NOT mob action, its not poking anyone in the eye. Its letting everyone know that we are not going to allow this to go away until it is resolved.

In the entire world there are a couple of banks that have failed, one of the those just happens to be in the IoM............unfortunately for us, the one we bank with.

We all know who is responsible for the situation, but we need to do EVERYTHING to put this right. I for one am not willing to just accept the compensation, I want my money back, all of it.........anybody out there who doesn't???

malc


Thanks malc we don't need to

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:51

Thanks malc we don't need to fight each other, i know tis is a pressure cooker of a situatu=ion but we need to keep clear heads and aside from what happens behind closed doors i'd like to think i have kept a clear head through all of this as has bbblair an hooper and gutterd well nearly always eh guttered!!!!

any way gotta go its Spooks time again!!!!


no need to fight

  • malc
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 19/10/2008 - 08:57

expat, then please ask bblair to stop putting out negative comments...........

malc