Final Distribution

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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Posted: Wed, 13/02/2019 - 09:29

Just as it seemed that, following the last of a succession of Court cases, the end of this liquidation really was imminent, a new ‘issue’ has raised its ugly head, with no suggestion of how long it may take to resolve: http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.im/2019/february/12february2019/

I understand that the Liquidator’s lawyers are now working on this. But I do not understand why this issue could not have been foreseen and the necessary legal advice obtained long ago re the status of these frozen accounts for which no proof of debt has ever been received. It is all very frustrating.

Meanwhile however, I would urge everyone who has not already done so to take the necessary steps now to ensure that you will receive your payment with minimum delay once the present issue is resolved. As described in the update, the action you need to take depends on your status in the liquidation, thus:

If you claimed either EPS or DCS (or both), you will receive your payment from the DCS provided you have completed and returned to the DCS a form to confirm or modify your contact details. You can read their update and download the form on the DCS website: https://www.dcs.im
Note that this represents a significant change for those who claimed EPS but not DCS and have until now received dividends direct from the Liquidator; any details held by the Liquidator will not be passed on to the DCS and you must complete & return the DCS form, together with the 'relevant certified copies' as outlined on their website.

If you claimed neither EPS nor DCS, you will receive your payment directly from the Liquidator’s team. Any changes in your contact details and/or bank account since the last dividend you received should be notified by letter. Otherwise you need take no further action.

Payments to bondholders will be made via the Life Companies, to whom any queries should be addressed.

Bon courage!

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Final distribution via DCS, when?

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Wed, 11/09/2019 - 16:44

Hi Anrigaut - is there any more or less reliable info on when they might be sending out cheques?


@ ng

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Wed, 11/09/2019 - 19:08

Hi ng,

No. But obviously they cannot do anything until the Liquidator announces the amount & date of the final distribution, which in turn depends on the resolution of the ongoing proceedings in the IOM Court re the freezing orders. My understanding is that a hearing is expected in mid-September. Once the judgement is announced, I guess the Liquidator may need a week ot two to finalise the payment details.

Once paid out by him, the DCS (who will receive a lump sum to cover all its claims) will no doubt need some time to sort out & check the amount due to each of its claimants. In the past, this checking has usually taken around 2 weeks. I suspect it may take a bit longer this time with so many more claimants concerned, but am only guessing. We will also have to wait for cheques to arrive by post - not obvious in some parts of the world (even France & Spain)!

Best regards,
anrigaut


Just had this notification by email

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
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  • Tue, 10/09/2019 - 17:45

John Glen Minister of State (Treasury) (City), The Economic Secretary to the Treasury
I am informing the House of the sale of the remainder of a claim against Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander Limited (in administration) (“KSF”) acquired by the government during the 2007-2008 financial crisis. The government’s claim was held by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (“FSCS”) which compensated KSF depositors at the time of the financial crisis. This sale to Tavira Securities Limited generates proceeds of £17.8 million for the Exchequer.

Rationale

The government acquired its claim in KSF to preserve financial stability. The administration of KSF has now been running for over nine years and there is comparatively little value remaining in the residual assets. The Exchequer has received £421 million of dividends prior to this sale. In addition, FSCS has repaid to the Exchequer £2.6 billion (plus interest of £146 million) which it borrowed at the time of the financial crisis to enable it to pay compensation for covered deposits in KSF.

Continuing to hold the claim until the administration of KSF concluded was considered, but this option was discounted as the analysis suggested a sale could achieve value for money and would free up FSCS and HM Treasury capacity previously used to manage the claim to pursue other work.

FSCS discussed the sale with a number of potential counterparties, having previously examined the market for selling claims. The counterparty selected offered the highest price.

The proceeds from this sale will reduce Public Sector Net Debt. This marks the conclusion of the government’s and FSCS’s involvement in KSF.

Format and Timing

The government and FSCS concluded that this sale achieves value for money for the taxpayer having (i) conducted an analysis of whether market conditions were conducive for the sale of this asset; and (ii) conducted an assessment of the fair market value for the asset. The sale made use of a third party broker experienced in selling claims against insolvent companies, which was done to create competitive tension among potential ultimate buyers of the asset.

Fiscal Impacts

I can confirm that the sale proceeds of £17.8 million are within the hold valuation range. In 2019-20 the sale reduces Public Sector Net Debt (PSND) by £17.8 million and Public Sector Net Liabilities (PSNL) and Public Sector Net Financial Liabilities (PSNFL) by £2.3 million.

The impacts on the fiscal aggregates, in line with fiscal forecasting convention, are not discounted to present value. The net impacts of the sale on a selection of fiscal metrics are summarised as follows:

Metric
Impact
Sale proceeds
£17.8 million
Hold valuation

Net present value of the assets if held to maturity using Green Book assumptions
£9.9 million - £24.1 million
Public Sector Net Borrowing
No impact
Public Sector Net Debt
Improved by £17.8 million in 2019-20
Public Sector Net Liabilities
Improved by £2.3 million in 2019-20
Public Sector Net Financial Liabilities
Improved by £2.3 million in 2019-20
I will update the House of any further changes to the FSCS as necessary.


FINAL DISTRIBUTION

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Tue, 10/09/2019 - 14:42

Dear Anrigaut,
I'm an old guy and a little confused with regards to final distribution. I took advantage of EPS2 and have had 100% of my original claim repaid direct to my Bank account by the Liquidator. Am I to understand that final dividend will not be paid direct to my account in a similar manner? I have not changed address or account details so do I have to fill in the form you mention above. I am also very surprised to see that they intend to send final distribution by post/cheque - why not direct transfer to my account as this would be much easier/cheaper. I would be most obliged for your advice and/or assistance in this matter.
Kind regards,
Mikepapa


@ mikepapa

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 10/09/2019 - 20:20

Dear mikepapa,

Your understanding is correct.

As I noted above, all depositors who claimed EPS1 or EPS2 will receive the final distribution from the DCS, even if -like you - they subsequently claimed directly in the liquidation and received dividends from the Liquidator. To receive this you will need to complete & return, with proof of address, the form to be found on the DCS website: https://www.dcs.im/

The DCS has decided that - in view of the very large number of (<£50k) depositors whose original claims were fully paid out at the start of the liquidation and with whom they have had no further contact - it will be more cost-effective for them to pay this by cheque. This applies also to those partially protected depositors (like myself) who have to date received dividends from the DCS by bank transfer. I find it hard to credit and queried the decision when it was first announced, but no way to shift them. Sorry - but that's the way it is!

Best regards from this old lady (!),
anrigaut


Thanks to Anrigaut

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Wed, 11/09/2019 - 16:14

Dear Anrigaut,
Thank you so much for your speedy reply. It seems to me that IOM/DCS are still up to their usual tricks! I will endeavour to fill out the form to the best of my ability - can I return it by email or do I have to send it by snail mail/post? If/as/when a final the distribution is made, since they insist in sending a cheque by post.... do you think there any way I can request recorded or courier delivery [at my cost] as I live in Africa, with a PO Box address, which is often unreliable?
Alternatively, do you think there is any way one could get them to transfer funds to a UK Bank in the normal manner?
Kind regards from one OAP to another!!
Mikepapa


@ mikepapa

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Wed, 11/09/2019 - 18:51

Hi again,

The answer to your first question, as stated on the DCS site, is:

" Completed scanned forms are only acceptable on email if your address and other details have not changed.
If your address and or other details have changed, you will need to send original signed and relevant certified copies to the postal address provided. "

This information was added to their update at my request soon after the update first appeared.

As you never claimed in DCS, you may be unknown to them (no details will be supplied to them by the Liquidator). So, although you can scan & send the form by email, you may still have to send the requested documentary proof of your address (see page 2 of the form), even it has not changed since you claimed EPS. But I'm not 100% sure of this, so suggest you email the DCS directly to check. If they say they do require these documents from you, I suggest you nevertheless send the form also by email with a note to the effect that the documents are in the post. They will then at least be aware of you and should email you if they do not receive the required additional documents.

You can also raise with them your problem with receiving post in Africa. But - on the basis of my earlier contacts with them - I am not optimistic they will agree to make an exception (I received bank transfers from them up to & including the last dividend in Nov 2014 and only needed to send the form, but they still insist I can now only be paid by cheque).

anrigaut


FINAL DISTRIBUTION

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 13/09/2019 - 07:34

Dear Anrigaut,
Once again many thanks for your rapid response.
Dear me, it seems IOM DCS/EPS are doing everything they can to frustrate and/or make it as difficult as possible to make the final distribution payment. I really cannot understand why the Liquidator should not just pass Beneficiary Name and Account details for those who have had no changes in address or details. I shall follow your kind advice, but like you I'm not optimistic of a problem free outcome!
Kind regards,
Mikepapa


mikepapa, Indeed. I did my

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Fri, 13/09/2019 - 08:21

mikepapa,

Indeed. I did my best to persuade them otherwise, but to no avail.
While the Liquidator has your contact details, he will have none for the vast majority who claimed only through EPS &/or DCS. Moreover, the DCS are even refusing to do bank transfers for those (like me) who have to date received all top-up dividends from them by bank transfer and whose bank details are unchanged. So even if the Liquidator passed on your bank details, the DCS would not - as it stands - agree to use them!

Good luck,
anrigaut


Freezing orders: Update 12 Aug

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Mon, 12/08/2019 - 18:44

As noted in the shout box, the 6 monthly update if now online: http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.im/2019/august/12august2019/

It does contain (in para 3.4) a little clarification on the current situation re the freezing orders:

"In my last report I mentioned that there are freezing orders in respect of former KSFIOM customer accounts. The Isle of Man Attorney General is claiming that the money held in these accounts should be confiscated. I am advised that the orders are invalid and, even if they were valid, the accounts cannot be confiscated as no proof of debt was received prior to the cut off date. Therefore I believe the money should be available for distributing to unsecured creditors, which means the final amount available for distribution cannot be determined until this is resolved. The total amount involved is significant to the amount available for distribution."

My further understanding is that the matter is now in the hands of the IOM court. Let us hope the Liquidator's arguments will be sustained.


Update 18 July

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Thu, 18/07/2019 - 09:26

At long last the Liquidator has seen fit to provide us, as part of the latest update, with more information on the state of play in this sorry saga:

"It is intended that one further dividend will be paid to creditors in respect of each class of interest. As previously reported there are freezing orders in respect of some former KSFIOM customer accounts. The Isle of Man Attorney General is claiming that the money which was held in these accounts should be confiscated. I believe that is incorrect and that, as I have received no proof of debt in relation to these accounts, the money should be available for distribution to unsecured creditors. Therefore I cannot quantify the final amount available for distribution to unsecured creditors until this is resolved. The total amount involved is significant to the amount available for distribution. The matter is in Court and I will update creditors as soon as the position is clarified."
http://www.kaupthingsingers.co.im/2019/july/18july2019/

Sooner would have been better! But at least he appears to be fighting our corner by attempting to prevent the implementation of a confiscation order or orders which he believes to be invalid. Maybe had he known from the start how long this would drag on he might have agreed to make an interim payment. But he always said that he wanted to avoid that because of the extra administrative costs involved in making a very large number of - often very small - payments; remember that interest is due to all depositors, including the vast majority who were fully covered by the Compensation Scheme but are nevertheless due interest.

Hopefully, with the matter now firmly in the hands of the Court, it will finally be settled soon - one way or the other. I understand a hearing is set for next month.
I live in hope!


Bob Hope I would say

  • softlad66
  • 10/10/08 27/04/11
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  • Fri, 09/08/2019 - 21:21

nm


Latest Update

  • Blades
  • 19/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Thu, 18/07/2019 - 20:37

Thank you very much for this latest update. Much appreciated as always.


Who gets the money?

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
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  • Thu, 18/07/2019 - 18:57

Let us say that one of us Chat contributors had an account with KSFIOM and we never - in all these years since the bank's collapse - bothered to submit our proof of debt. Even after the final warning to claim now or forever be denied, we still failed to make a claim. Days after this final warning, from out of nowhere, springs a foreign enforcement agency claiming that we had dodgy money in that bank and that they have 'frozen' it to prevent us from accessing any proceeds from it. Given that we never laid claim to the account, how does the agency prove that it was ours in the first place? We have not sought benefit from it, so depositing it in the bank would seem quite pointless. Or did we not claim it because we knew it was dodgy 10 years ago and that a foreign agency would catch up with us a few days after the final request to claim the debt was issued? One cannot claim proof of debt after the final proving date, so how does a foreign enforcement agency place a freezing order on account(s) that cannot be proven to belong to a former depositor? Can enforcement agencies prove ownership of an account on behalf of an alleged miscreant? If they can do these things then presumably they can claim the full 100% return of the deposit from the SL for handing back to the rightful owner(s) from whom it was purloined by the miscreant many years ago.

The crux of the matter would appear to be whether the miscreant failed to stake his/her claim to avoid being identified as the holder of misbegotten gains and if the foreign enforcement agency can clearly identify that the miscreant was indeed a former depositor with KSFIOM and that the account was funded with illegally gained monies. Given that freezing orders are only allowed after very strong evidence has been given supporting their use, and that the penalties for improper application are very stiff, it would seem likely that the enforcement agencies would not have pursued this course of action lightly. I believe the law was changed to allow foreign enforcement agencies to apply for freezing orders in November 2018 so perhaps this was the reason for the 'shotgun' approach.

As usual, these are just my own conjectures and nothing written here has any basis in fact, but merely suggests a possible explanation in light of the weak and tardy offerings of the SL.


Hope Deferred (yet again!)

  • D RAM
  • 13/10/08 01/08/14
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 18/07/2019 - 15:22

True to form the Isle of Man government continues to sh** on us. Incidentally where does the money go if it;s "confiscated" ?


Confiscated monies

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Thu, 18/07/2019 - 15:37

Any money confiscated goes to the law enforcement agency which issued the freezing order (this/these are known to be outside the IOM).


Freezing orders - 'progressing'

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 07/05/2019 - 18:04

In response to my request for any further information on this, I have today received the following reply from the Liquidator:

"The matter is progressing, however, I cannot provide any more information at this stage. I appreciate that creditors understandably want more information, however, I am concerned about potentially endangering the process. I will make an announcement as soon as I am able.
"

That's as much as I can do for now, so we can only crosss our fingers & hope for the best.

anrigaut


Thank you for relaying that

  • peter and louise
  • 18/10/08 01/09/09
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  • Wed, 08/05/2019 - 04:45

Thank you for relaying that anrigaut. .


Delay in Final Distribution

  • peter and louise
  • 18/10/08 01/09/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 17:15

Well, yes, details such as these help to give a somewhat clearer picture as to what's going on. Thank you to you too. Still have many questions, relevant or otherwise. I hope the fugative is located, captured, or whatever it is that they are going to do with him (or her) and soon (I won't say 'and locked up and the key thrown away') The wider circle of depositors certainly deserve a bit more information from SL than what they have been are getting. It is minimum what he has told us.


Delay in Final Distribution

  • peter and louise
  • 18/10/08 01/09/09
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  • Tue, 23/04/2019 - 17:44

Would it be possible to get some concrete information as to what is going on? What are these 'freezing orders' all about? On what grounds? Can our Committee of Inspection give us a clue perhaps? Who are the entities involved? In what way have they been able to succeed in getting the 'freezing orders' imposed? What are their contentions? What is their case? What is it that PWC have to do to be able to resolve the matter? Is it possible the Isle of Man government itself might be involved in the hold up. Are they making a claim? Any information would be appreciated. We have had our patience well tried and tested over many years. Not asking for too much for a bit of information. I have written twice to IOM for information. Their reply is that information will be given when they have it. Great. And so it goes on. Best Wishes to all still hanging on. Peter and Louise


Freezing Orders & delay in final distribution

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 11:25

Hi

In brief, a law enforcement agency abroad needs to physically serve an order on someone who has gone AWOL. The SL is doing what he can and KSFIOM's lawyers are instructed to assist in any way they can. There is no suggestion the IOMG are involved in any way and identities are protected as far as I know.

That's the last I heard - I will be chasing up and post back here when I know more. I share the frustration at this last (!) twist in the road and have shared all of our frustration with the SL.

All the best
K E


Delay in Final Distribution

  • peter and louise
  • 18/10/08 01/09/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 13:16

Thank you for that information....though it sheds no light at all on what's going on. Makes me want to ask more questions but, of course, any further details would never be declared for the likes of me (i.e. depositors). So, someone's done a runner. The cops are after him and SL and bank lawyers are part of the posse! Great! What on earth did 'AWOL' do? Has he run off with the loot? I still don't get it. Impossible to deduce anything from that information. But thank you anyway. Why can't the SL give us a few more clues.


@ Peter & Louise

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 15:55

That seems a liitle unfair on KE. He has told you all he has been told and is pushing to know more.
And it does shed some light ... if not as much as you - and all of us (probably including the Liquidator!) would like.

As I understand it, he has not run off with the loot, which is sitting in the bank under a freezing order from the enforcement agency concerned (the Liquidator must of course know who that is, but it wouldn't advance us much to know). While the account remains frozen, the Liquidator can do nothing with the money (of which some or all must be subject to confiscation) and thus cannot know how much is available for distribution. And it seems the agency has to contact the presumed offender personally to issue a confiscation order before anything more can be done to resolve the problem.

What 'AWOL' has done is irrelevant (to me at least). My question would rather be how long can this go on? Surely there must be some legal limit to the time allowed to find this guy (or gal!)? I have asked KE to ask this question.

By the way, this was not the only freezing order, but the others have apparently all been resolved, either by having them lifted or by compensation orders being applied.

I hope that helps a little.

anrigaut


Thank you for clarifying

  • Jean-Charles Marlier
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 16:24

Thank you for clarifying somewhat our latest concern Anrigaut.
And yes it does help a bit.
But as you said,for how much longer this saga is going to go on?!....
Best regards
J-Ch


Very good comments and very

  • Jean-Charles Marlier
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 30/04/2019 - 13:36

Very good comments and very good question !


Delay in Final Distribution

  • peter and louise
  • 18/10/08 01/09/09
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  • Tue, 23/04/2019 - 18:30

Whilst writing to enquire whether or not it would be possible, at the very least, to know who the people (entities) involved in the 'freezing orders' actually are (i.e. their premise for stopping distribution of interest, their rationale etc. and how PWC intends to resolve the issue) I forgot to ask whether the Icelandic bank itself might also be involved. With my
confidence with the IOM government, understandably beyond repair (and as I said, it wouldn't come as any big surprise if they themselves might be involved in some sort of shenanigans) but neither would it surprise me if bankers in Iceland might too have a hand in this. Conjecture? Yes. Anyway, can anyone who knows something, say something? Kind Regards.
Peter and Louise


Final Distribution - When ?

  • D RAM
  • 13/10/08 01/08/14
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 25/04/2019 - 11:08

I share your obvious frustration and am sure we all do. However, rather than all the ins-and-outs of the current delay, what I'd like is if we could at least be given an indication when there is a possibility of matters being resolved and final payments distributed. A month? a year ? 10 years ? ever ?


Anrigaut & KE et al.

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 16/02/2019 - 10:21

It is frustrating that it seems to take forever for even the simplest thing to be achieved as I would have thought the Iom govt and legal system would want this issue off the books asap.
However what I do know is that everyone who contributes to this site is doing so in order to provide as much up to date information as is possible so a big thankyou to all involved in the assessments and updates that still continue to flow even a decade after this all happened.
As possible autumnal payments morphed into winter and now Spring is soon to arrive perhaps we can look forward to a warm end to this dreadful fiasco.
John on behalf of my mum.


@ thesunnysouth

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Sat, 16/02/2019 - 10:53

I am reasonably convinced that the Liquidator is (almost) as frustrated as we all are at this unexpected and unwelcome set-back and is doing his level best to get the matter resolved speedily. But such matters are never as simple as you suggest. They necessarily require informed decisions be taken by the Attorney General and/or the High Court and cannot be done at the flick of a pen (either in the IOM or elsewhere). So it seems a bit soon to say it is taking 'forever'!

All the best to you and your mum. Hold in there and keep your fingers crossed!


Forever

  • thesunnysouth
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 16/02/2019 - 21:06

Anrigaut. When in your 80s every month IS forever. Ten years is a long time to wind up these accounts. Not sure what else to call it.

John


A wager on a result?

  • VikingRaider
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 25/05/2019 - 01:09

I wonder if it may be worth a small wager as to when a payout is made? Perhaps a few guineas for 2070 may be propitious, by which time I expect to be anticipating what used be called a "telegram from the Queen" -- on my 100th birthday (which will be a common occurrence by that time, no doubt). Every cloud has a silver lining!


Re: The Wager

  • D RAM
  • 13/10/08 01/08/14
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 25/05/2019 - 08:55

"Hope springs eternal". Day 3,881 ( 8 October 2008 to 25 May 2019)


Re Forever

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Sun, 17/02/2019 - 12:26

Point taken – I didn’t mean to offend. I’m rapidly approaching the 80s myself and am just as frustrated as everyone else with this latest delay – as I have been on numerous occasions throughout the whole process.

I was just trying – as ever - to keep things in perspective. What I can never forgive is the delay of almost a whole year before – apart from the (grudgingly implemented) EPS – we were able to recover any of our funds. Once the liquidation finally began however, it was clearly going to be a long haul as the loan book was gradually wound down. Early repayment or re-financing of loans not due to be repaid for several years cannot be enforced – thankfully for those concerned. Once over-due, enforcement action to obtain repayment of outstanding loans is a complex & time-consuming business and the last such loan (of around £4 million) was repaid only at the end of 2017 – a little over 9 years after the collapse of the bank. It is hard to see how that could have been achieved much sooner.

Three years earlier, in November 2014, we had recovered 100% of our capital, something I am sure none of us ever thought possible back in the dark days of 2008-9 and for which I think we should accord some credit to the liquidator (fees notwithstanding). So the fact that we are now to receive some interest in addition is really the icing on the cake. Certainly I had hoped things could have moved more quickly over this last year and this latest hiccup – just as the end seemed imminent - is indeed frustrating. But in the overall scale of things, maybe a few more weeks to wait for the icing is really not too much to bear?


15/02/2019 - (limited) update

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 15/02/2019 - 19:38

Hi

A brief update for you on this, based on what I can disclose of what the SL has told me this evening.

The timing of all this is explained in part by the fact that, notwithstanding the foreign government agencies involved being approached prior to the recent court application dealing with the destruction of data, they only very recently raised the freezing orders as a live issue. How these orders were not somehow logged at the bank before this is a moot point at this stage.

From what I can gather, the wheels are already in motion for several of the accounts to be dealt with in the IOM by their Attorney General, and the time-frame for resolving this for the other accounts, in the IOM High Court, should not be protracted if (IF) - as we hope - the IOM HC acts expeditiously on an administrative basis (as opposed to requiring a full hearing); however, we do not have further details on this at present.

This is the best way to proceed, since it removes the possibility of having to make two 'final' distributions (one of the certain amounts payable, then one of whatever is currently frozen but is subsequently released into the 'creditor pool'), where the overheads of making these distribution payments risk making some of the amounts being paid impractically small.

The SL has said he will update the website once this is resolved.

All the best
K E


To Knife Edge & Anrigaut

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 16/02/2019 - 14:19

Thank you both for your informative updates. Unfortunately as I thought no reply to myself from MS. Let's hope for a quick resolution.

Gordon 45


re (limited ) update

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 15/02/2019 - 20:12

Many thanks KS.

As you know, I also heard from the SL this evening, and I gather he told me most of the same but with a bit less precise detail.

One thing I would add though is that he did unambiguously confirm that "no further proofs of debt can be accepted in relation to these or any other claims in the liquidation".

So his aim is "to get the freezing orders resolved one way or the other as quickly as possible so that the final amount available to unsecured creditors can be known with certainty and paid out in one go". This can be achieved "by various means dependent upon the wording of the individual orders. In some cases this will be achieved by the orders being lifted, in others by the issue of a confiscation order."

We can only hope the IOM High Court for once acts speedily.


Thank you Anrigaut and KE for

  • ianw
  • 14/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 15/02/2019 - 21:14

Thank you Anrigaut and KE for your prompt updates,

I do understand the point regarding a single final distribution. It just seems a pity that our cash has been invested at such derisory low rates over the years, contributing to erosion of the real value... Anyway, let's just hope this isn't going to be protracted....

Ian


Hi Arrigaut, I share your

  • ianw
  • 14/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 09:23

Hi Arrigaut,

I share your frustration with yet another delay. I wonder if you could help with three questions:

  1. There is a Committee of Inspection "COI" whose role is to represent the creditors. Was the COI aware of these freezing orders from the outset and supported the Liquidator in not taking earlier legal advice?

  2. My recollection is that a final amount had been agreed for the Liquidator's costs. Is this still the case, or will this now increase due to the freezing orders?

  3. I find it really irritating that some £14 million of our cash is earning a derisory 0.02% interest when the clearing banks holding the deposit are using this to earn massive returns on credit card debt etc. I just cannot believe we've been treated fairly over the past ten years in this respect. Interestingly, the cash bridge on page 11 of the last Report to Creditors shows receipts as a negative quantity...

I do think the Liquidator should provide more information. My understanding is that Freezing Orders have time limits.

Thank you for all your support to the group over the years.

Ian


Freezing Orders & delay in final distribution

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 12:17

Hi

Thanks (as ever) to anrigaut for keeping everyone in the loop. I'm a (your) member of the CoI and just wanted to come back on these queries in particular and to make some general comments/observations. Taking the questions in turn:

1 - no, the CoI was not aware of these orders 'from the outset' - we found out just before the wider announcement was made

2 - I have raised this with the liquidator on all our behalf.

3 - I quite understand the frustration at yet another delay. This is shared by all involved, believe me. I have asked the liquidator a number of questions and also that he share as much information on the bank website as he can - relating to them (such as timing, process, possible outcomes).

I or anrigaut (with whom I correspond separately) will keep you all posted as we find out more.

Best wishes
Knife Edge


Hi, Much appreciate your

  • ianw
  • 14/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 14:43

Hi,

Much appreciate your prompt response. It sounds as though something is very wrong in terms of the governance associated with the CoI. The Creditors reports have always stated the role of the CoI and this includes:

"S.185 of the Act states that the Liquidator shall have regard to any directions given by resolution of the creditors or by the Committee." and "The flow of information occurs both ways, with members of the committee raising points for consideration by the Liquidator as well as the PwC team providing information to the Committee for review and comment."

It seems to me that PwC is being negligent - certainly in not acting in the spirit of this relationship.

Practically, I suspect there's not a lot you can do. PwC's first loyalty is to themselves so their first interest is to maximise their fee at the expense of the creditors.

I've no doubt you and your colleagues on the CoI have all done your best on our behalf. It must be very frustrating..

Ian


CoI role

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 15:03

Hi again

We were informed beforehand and I have nor reason to believe that we were informed a long time after the matter arose. I can't go into detail, but the CoI has been actively involved in a number of 'judgment calls' throughout the liquidation (and we have an open line to the liquidators, which is why I've raised the queries here and of my own with the SL, so I do consider the flow of information is two-way - and having this site as a forum for raising issues is very useful for that).

I've specifically raised the question of fees in this context.

It is frustrating, I agree - all the more so as it seemed as if the end was in sight (and from logging in to the site I was reminded that we have been at this here for over 9 years and counting...

All the best
Knife Edge


Many thanks, Very happy to

  • ianw
  • 14/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 16:38

Many thanks,

Very happy to let you deal with the liquidators on our behalf and much appreciate all your efforts over the years.

Ian


KE: by my arithmetic (a Maths

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 14/02/2019 - 15:33

KE: by my arithmetic (a Maths degree comes in handy sometimes!) it's over 10 years and counting :)
At least counting from the collapse of the bank. But indeed 'only' 9 plus since the start of the CoI - which is perhaps what you meant.


Arithmetic, what's that?

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 15/02/2019 - 16:41

L(° O °L)

Well, I wondered if someone might pull me up on that. But I was thinking of the CoI and winding-up process, it's true. For myself, it's two and a half kids and a whole lot less hair as well - and the latter not only because of KSFIOM!


Re Arithmetic ...

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 15/02/2019 - 20:21

KE: That was something of an 'in-joke' :)

It might reassure worried readers here to know that you do actually have three perfectly whole kids (of whom I have recent photographic proof).


IoM Posts on LinkedIn

  • softlad66
  • 10/10/08 27/04/11
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 13/02/2019 - 20:58

Slightly off-topic but the IoM government has recently been posting on LinkedIn extolling its virtues in respect of its strong regulation and customer protection for potential investors. I have made LinkedIn users aware in no uncertain terms that the legal environment of the IoM is no place to invest their hard earned savings especially given this latest legal ruling. How long do they actually need to get this matter resolved?..let our pain be their pain as well.


Statutory Interest

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 13/02/2019 - 10:48

As it was so long ago I cannot remember how I claimed!
I do not recall having any contact with anyone other than the Liquidator. Can I assume that I will automatically get paid out or should I email the Liquidator for confirmation.
I do not want to do this unnecessarily as I seem to cost us £400.00 per enquiry.


EPS 1 & EPS 2 - reminder

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 13/02/2019 - 11:20

Hi flying pig,

It seems you almost certainly did not claim in DCS - had you done so you would have received up to the compensation limit of £50 in late 2009 and then, once the DCS had recovered that amount from the liquidation, further top-up dividends from the DCS (and not directly from the Liquidator).

However, you may or may not have claimed under one or both of the two EPS schemes (operated by IOM Treasury prior to the start of the liquidation) and subsequently claimed in the liquidation.

A recap of the timing and amount of these schemes might help you (& others) to recall what you did:
EPS1 paid up to £1000 per claimant around Dec 2008
EPS2 paid up to a further £9000 (for a total of £10000) around March 2009

If you are still unsure whether or not you claimed either of these advance payments you should contact the Liquidator to check (I can't believe it will cost £400!).


EPS but not DCS claimants in liquidation

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 13/02/2019 - 13:05

I am informed that of around 1700 depositors who claimed under EPS but not under the DCS, around 500 had 'significant balances'. These 500 presumably went on to claim in the liquidation and received dividends directly from the Liquidator until 2014 (which brought us to '100%') and will now have to supply details to the DCS in order to receive the final distribution.

I believe they represent a little over half of all those who claimed directly in the liquidation. So a not inconsiderable number.


EPS 1 & EPS2 REMINDER

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Wed, 13/02/2019 - 12:06

Thanks Arigaut for your swift response

Neither of those sums received so I assume that I can safely leave this to the Liquidator!

You would be horrified to find out the hourly (to the nearest hour) rates that the Big Four Accountancy Firms charge out.

London City Rates prevail .

Cheers