Disgraceful late notification from Liquidators regarding Parent Guarantee

  • hopeful
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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Posted: Tue, 22/12/2009 - 17:49

I have this afternoon received an email from the DST advising depositors to lodge an individual claim under the parent guarantee with Kaupthing Bank hf in Iceland immediately. This follows a pathetic late posting by the Liquidators advising that claims must be received by Kaupthing Bank hf in Iceland by 30th December 2009 (only 8 days away including the Christmas break).

According to DST's advice it appears that our Liquidators will not be lodging a claim under the parent guarantee on the behalf of all depositors. If the Liquidators were aware that they would not be lodging such a claim it begs the question why did they wait until now to advise on this very important matter. The parent guarantee has been discussed many times since our banks collapse in October 2008, and in view of the fact that we the depositors are paying a considerable amount in fees to the Liquidators, I feel that they are simply going through the motions and treating us all as pawns in the game - absolutely disgraceful.

I have sent my claim off in the post this evening and trust it gets to Iceland in time.

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Confirmation of receipt of claim

  • grandmaparis
  • 13/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 13:27

How will we know if our claim has arrived in time? Having rushed to get my claim off on 24th December from France by express post (assured that it would arrive on 26th), I emailed the winding-up committee yesterday to be told that due to the large number of claims received there was a back-log in registering them and that they could not confirm they had received my claim. In response to a further inquiry they informed me that only those who had asked for notification of receipt of their claim (as specified in the instructions) would be notified. In my rush to get my claim off, I did not have time to prepare and enclose a self addressed registered envelope for notification purposes. Can anyone put my mind at rest?


Confirmation of our claim

  • Chairman2
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 31/12/2009 - 19:18

We sent our claim via express courier on Tuesday 29 December and also scanned and faxed the documents to the solicitor, named on the website we received an email on Wednesday the day after saying our claim had been received. We had confirmation today from the courier service that the winding up committee recieved our documents.


@grandmaparis

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 14:06

I did like you - didn't notice about the stamped addressed envelope and posted by chronopost on 22 Dec (as it turns out I needn't have bothered as I am in the DCS). The French PO said 2 working days so, even allowing for Christmas, your's should have arrived in good time - but of course you can never be sure...

As an extra precaution, you could if you wish try to use the PoA we set up. Their 'deadline' for accepting scanned forms by email was 12 noon GMT today - but they may well be more flexible than the WuC. If you want to give it a try, you should just add the text below at the bottom of your printed and signed form, sign again below for good measure, and email to the address provided in the DST update. Suggest you also say in your email that you have already sent directly but are concerned it may not have arrived in time. But, as I say, no guarantee it will work now.

This is the wording to give power of attorney:

"With reference to all the above [...] declares that BBA//Legal has full authority to submit the claim and represent [...] in all other respects."


Confirmation Received from BBA//Legal

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 15:50

After emailing my form yesterday to BBA//Legal, I have received acknowledgement from them today:-
"I confirm that I have received your claim and that I will submit it to the Winding-up Board of Kaupthing today.

Please be advised that we will submit the claim form in reliance on the accuracy of the information you have submitted to us (including, but not limited to, information regarding any names, amounts, dates, addresses, reference numbers and calculations of any kind), i.e. without reviewing the substance of the claim. We take no responsibility for any consequences of information provided by you in the claim form proving wrong or inaccurate. We therefore urge you to make sure that the information you have provided us with are accurate."

It would appear that the system is running as well as could be expected at this time of year :)


Update 15/1/10

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 15/01/2010 - 15:51

Further to the 27,000 claims received http://www.kaupthing.com/Pages/4142?NewsID=4280
I received a recorded delivery letter today from the Kaupthing Winding-up Committee. As follows:-


>A notification regarding a claim filed against Kaupthing Bank hff.
>Due to the number and scope of filed claims, the Winding-up Committee of Kaupthing has been unable to conclude recognition of all filed claims prior to the creditors' meeting to be held on Friday 29 January 2010 at 10 a.m. at Hilton Hotel Nordica, Sudurlandsbraut 2, Reykjavik, Iceland.
>Please take notice that the Winding-up Committee has postponed its determination as to the recognition of your claim filed under the above claim number and it will not be discussed at the creditors' meeting to be held on Friday 29 January 2010 at 10:00 a.m. at Hilton Hotel Nordica, Sudurlandsbraut 2, Reykjavik, Iceland. The meeting will
however discuss the list of filed claims generally and the Winding-up Committee's determination a?, to the recognition of claims insofar as they have been completed and are available.
>A list of filed claims will be made available to parties who have filed claims on 22 of January 2010 on webpage www. kaupthing.com.
....
>According to the Act no. 21/1991 on Bankruptcy [etc], any claimant who does not accept the Winding-up Committee's decision may lodge an objection with the Winding-up Committee. If you want to lodge an objection to a decision made by the Winding-up Committee, you must deliver your objections in writing to the Winding-up Committee no later than the creditors' meeting on 29 January 2010. A proforma objection may be found on webpage www.kaupthing.com which should be completed and sent for receipt by the Winding-up Committee prior to, or delivered at, the creditors' meeting. If objections against the Winding-up Committee's recognition of a claim are not raised either before or at that meeting, the Winding-up Committee's recognition of the claim may be considered final according to Paragraph 3 of Article 120 of the Act no. 21/1991 on Bankruptcy [etc].
>The Winding-up Committee will convene a follow-up creditors' meeting on 18 May 2010 at 10:00 a.m. at Hilton Hotel Nordica, Sudurlandsbraut 2, Reykjavik, Iceland, to continue discussion of the Winding-up Committee's recognition of claims that have not already been finalised on 29 January 2010. Creditors of claims whose decisions will be finalised and presented -at that meeting will be sent a special notification regarding their claim no later than one week prior to the meeting. If the process of claim recognition is not completed before the follow-up creditors' meeting, the Winding up Committee will convene another follow-up meeting later in 2010 to conclude discussion of the Winding-up Committee's recognition of any outstanding claims.
>Please note that the Winding-up Committee will not make a determination with respect to deferred claims under Article 114 of Act no. 21/1991 on Bankruptcy [etc] in accordance with Article 119 of the Bankruptcy Act.


Watch this space http://www.kaupthing.com/Pages/4157?NewsID=4275


Peasant - proforma objection

  • jmf
  • 16/10/08 31/10/09
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  • Tue, 19/01/2010 - 10:31

Peasant - Is the proforma objection on the www.kaupthing.com page now? I cannot see it.


proforma objection

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 19/01/2010 - 15:33

I can't see that there is a proforma. If you look on http://www.kaupthing.com/pages/4141 you will see that:-
If an objection is raised at the first creditors’ meeting against the Winding‐up Committee's stand, the Winding‐up Committee shall attempt to settle the dispute. Following the first creditors’ meeting the Winding‐up Committee will attempt to resolve disputes in due course. If the dispute cannot be settled in this manner, the Winding‐up Committee shall refer the matter to the District Court of Reykjavik.

Objections received in writing from a creditor who does not attend the meeting in person will be taken into account at the meeting. Creditors who attend the meeting may also object the decision.

A stand, taken by the Winding-up Committee with repect to a claim, which is not opposed at the creditors’ meeting, or in a letter received by the Winding-up Committee no later than the time of the meeting, is final.

If you wish to attend there is a form for it at http://www.kaupthing.com/?pageid=4155

HTH :)


PROFORMA

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 19/01/2010 - 16:46

Sorry, perhaps I am particilarly thick but I quote below from the letter

"A proforma objection may be found on webpage www.kaupthing.com which should be completed and sent for receipt by the Winding-up Committee prior to, or delivered at, the creditors' meeting".

To me this means that any objections have to be received by the Winding Up Committee before 29th January and there is a proforma for it. Knowing how strictly these people are interpereting the "rules" it seems essential to me that their proforma is used so that an objection is not ruled out as not containing some obscure required information. The deadline is fast approaching.


Proforma Objection

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 21/01/2010 - 10:40

I don't believe it exists, yet. If anyone has been advised that their claim is going to be considered at the meeting then they have a reason to possibly not "accept the Winding-up Committee's position as regards the recognition of his/her claim against the Bank" in which case they can always write a letter see below


29.01.2010

All Creditors‘ Meeting called by the Winding-up Committee

Following the end of the claim registration period, the Winding-up Committee will hold an All Creditors‘ Meeting on Friday 29 January 2010 at 10am at Hilton Hotel Nordica, Sudurlandsbraut 2, Reykjavik, Iceland. The claims register shall be presented at the Creditors’ Meeting, as well as any objections that may have been made. A creditor, who is unwilling to accept the Winding-up Committee's position as regards the recognition of his/her claim against the Bank, shall state his objections at a creditors' meeting or notify the Winding-up Committee in a letter received by it no later than at that meeting. More information on the winding-up process can be found in Chapter 6 of the Creditors' Report.


Determination of my claim has been postponed to a later meeting, when, if I see fit, I can object to fitness of the winding-up Committee to determine it. That's how I see it. :)


PROFORMA OBJECTION

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 21/01/2010 - 10:59

I have read everything again and my interpretation is that a list of creditors will be published on their site sometime on 22nd January 2010 (tomorrow) and if you are not on it you will then be able to object on the proforma which will be published on the site at the same time.

It seems that as our claims have not been determined then we will not be on the list therefore we will have to object. This proforma objection must me in their hands by 28th January 2010 or it is not valid.

Another disgraceful late notification which will mean that most people will be unable to get hard copies to Iceland in time without using expensive couriers!

There is no mention on their site of an extension for overseas creditors.

I hope that I am wrong about the deadline but fairness does not seem to in the Iclandic Dictionary.


to Peasant re proforma objection

  • jmf
  • 16/10/08 31/10/09
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  • Tue, 19/01/2010 - 15:46

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. jmf


PROFORMA

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
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  • Tue, 19/01/2010 - 12:53

I couldn't find it either


WHAT DO WE DO NOW? HELP PLEASE

  • flying pig
  • 16/12/08 31/05/09
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  • Mon, 18/01/2010 - 17:10

As claims are not being "determined" ie have not been rejected and will not be looked at until after the meeting on 29th January how can we object to a "determination " that has not been made before 29th January?

Is it enough to object to the decision not to "determine", presumably this must be in before 29th January.

Help please


Confirmation from BBA

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 16:22

We too have received confirmation in this form. Well done and thank you to everyone for your efforts to put this in place, especially at this time of the year.


Re-submit parental guarantee claims?

  • Anonymous
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 16:07

Should we re-submit parental guarantee claims online, according to the new guidance sent out by DST 29 Dec?

Many of us will have scrambled to get hard copies of the forms to Iceland by 30 Dec already, but without the more precise phraseology and links suggested by the DST.

Is it advisable to re-send, nevertheless?


Parental Guarantee Online and Hard Copies

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 11:22

I didn't pick up on this until it was obviously too late to send via mail to BBA Legal wherever they are.
I followed the helpful instructions in the emails I received from KSFIOM DAG Strategy Team. Completed the form with the extra bit at the bottom which I signed through with my signature.

The only question I have is. Is it necessary to send the paper copy, recorded delivery etc. It obviously wouldn't arrive by the deadline so what would be its value?


@peasant

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 12:19

No - as long as you have sent a scanned copy with your signature and giving PoA as instructed, there is no need for anything else. That is the whole point of this complicated arrangement to help those like you who were too late to do otherwise; the law firm in question is in Reykjavik and will deposit hard copy in your name by hand delivery today.

Well - we hope so!


@anrigaut

  • Peasant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 13:48

Thank you for the reassurance and all your and the team's hard work.

Wishing you all a Happy New Year and that it will be more prosperous than 2009. A change of Government would be good, surely none could be worse than this lot of incompetents.


@broke2

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 16:51

I guess it's up to you!

My personal view would be that the precise phraseology is not really important. However, if you are not a DCS-claimant and if think your claim may not have arrived in time, then resending it would probably be advisable.


Thanks Anrigaut - Qustion re: agent nominee? Can anyone answer

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 19:14

Hi Anrigaut, Happy Holidays and a Happier New Year wished to you and all of us. Thank you so much and the active members of the DST for your urgent work and communications over the Holiday Season which should not have been a situation ruining another season of joy for us all if the LP was only decent respectful in his treatment of us.

I posted in a written claim to Iceland Winding up claims without the supposed interest worked out correctly but at least lodges a claim in writing before departure to Christmas abroad. Now with the latest communications from DST and the announce ant of the Icelandic team of lawyers working on our behalf do I re submit another claim with correctly worked out interest and I the Agent/Nominee section of the form do I put in the name and address of the Icelandic lawyers: BBA legal in this section? Which wasn't in my original claim as we didn’t have info then Anrigaut, Happy Holidays and a Happier New Year wished to you and all of us. Thank you so much and the active members of the DST for your urgent work and communications over the Holiday Season which should not have been if the LP was only decent respectful with his treatment of us.

I posted in a written claim to Iceland Winding up claims without the supposed calculated interest worked out correctly but at least lodged a claim with name address bank accounts etc in writing before departure to Christmas abroad. Now with the latest communications from DST and the announcement of the Icelandic team of lawyers working on our behalf do I re submit another claim with correctly worked out interest and I the Agent/Nominee section of the form do I put in the name and address of the Icelandic lawyers: BBA legal in this section? Which wasn't in my original claim as we didn’t have info then. Appreciate anyone able to answer as I’m in another time zone so have to get this off urgently today/tonight emailed thanks fight theft.


@Fight Theft

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 20:57

Hi Fight theft,
I'm sorry if all was not as clear as it might have been. As you have realised, we were working under a great deal of pressure as a result of the JL's vacillation.

Provided you submitted your signed claim in time to meet the deadline (as appears to be the case), then you have no need to re-submit. At this late stage I very much doubt whether anyone is going to work out the interest according to the regulations we received at the last minute from the Icelandic lawyer (and so felt obliged to include); the 'calculator' I supplied certainly does not do that, but it provides a rough figure which I am sure is quite sufficient to stake a claim and the same goes for anything else you may have done.

The local Power of Attorney has been arranged for the benefit of those who were unable to meet the deadline otherwise, so is clearly irrelevant in your case.

I hope that sets your mind at rest!
Regards, anrigaut


Fight Theft

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 19:53

I am having the same problem (see my post below). In the DAG ST email it distinctly says NOT to use the Agent/Nominee box for their details ...... but I cannot see where this additional box is that we are supposed to use ........ ?


Power of Attorney details?

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 17:51

Sorry if I am being dumb, but I cannot see where the "additional column" is for the Power of Attorney details to be inserted? Can anyone help?


@caledonia

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 21:26

Hi there!

I was dreading this one! This part of the instructions was inserted into our initial draft by the Icelandic lawyer and we are not quite sure either what he intended - but lacked time to clarify further. Re-reading it now, it's even less comprehensible - maybe in part due to his Icelandic English. There is no other column (he means box I think) on the Khf form. Does he mean they will supply and complete another PoA form? But your signature can only be on the form you send... Moreover, there is no space at the bottom of the form ...

All I can suggest is that you block out the "General information" section under your signature and write the required text there, leaving them space to complete their details "below" (as they say). Personally I would then sign it again to be sure (usually one signs under a text not above it).

Does that make any sense? If we get any feedback I will update you - but time is fast running out!


Email re:Parental Guarantee

  • Clogs2
  • 20/10/08 31/08/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 22:05

I didn't receive emial with form for Parental Guarantee claim. Not sure if I can get it there in time Is is possible to send it to me? I have sent an emaill to dag site tonight. Thansk for all your efforts.
Clogs2


@clogs2

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 22:56

I have just sent you an email re this just respond to it and I will forward the DST email


Thanks for you reply

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 21:31

at least I know its not me!
We have squeezed in the text and will sign again below it. It does sound like that they may have an additional page for Power of Attorney ... have to watch this space again!
Thank you SO MUCH for all your help, time and patience.


Re the PoA form

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 07:48

Hi Caledonia - and others,

Have received the following reply to your question from the Icelandic law firm:

"The problem seems to be that the Claimants are unable to insert a new column in the claim form. If that is the case I would suggest that the Claimants insert the following text at the bottom of column 44:

"With reference to all the above [...] declares that BBA//Legal has full authority to submit the claim and represent [...] in all other respects." "

Clearly the intention had been to insert another box (maybe this was indeed possible - I admit I didn't try, sorry!). But otherwise what I suggested seems to be OK. Just be sure to include the name of the law firm as above.


Claim on PG

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
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  • Mon, 28/12/2009 - 14:25

Following posting re DCS claimants for PG, any news about what the rest of us can do? We were not at home to have the info to send off before and now, 28th Dec, we don't have a hope in hell of getting our claim forms to Iceland in time. This is just so outrageous - after all this time, they are now making us run round like headless chickens while they charge the earth to be less than adequate ..... Sound familiar?


@ Claim on PG

  • Ohdear
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 14:34

After receiving email and reading messages here, I am still confused what to do. I claim under DCS, the Email appears to suggest that if you claimed under DCS then you need not send any form, is that correct?

I filled mine by hand before holidays and sent it off, hoping it should be in Iceland by tomorrow. Is that sufficient or do I need to do more?

Can someone please clartify but please use simple language.

Many thanks.


@Ohdear

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 15:48

Sorry if you were still confused. I can confirm bellyup's reply to your question.

Unfortunately DCS did not announce that they had claimed until 24 Dec, when some DCS claimants (myself included) had already submitted claims. But rest assured, you will have lost nothing by having acted as you did.


@ohdear

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 14:54

If you have claimed under the DCS you do not need to send in any form.

from the DSC site
DCS claimants will be aware that they have assigned all their rights to the Scheme Manager and should not seek to register a separate claim in their own name.


PG claims

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 11:54

If you have got your claims in all well and good.

But PWC is making a claim on behalf of the bank ( which one assumes covers all the depositors)
The DCS has made a claim.
The Insurance companies have made a claim.

If the PG bears any fruit it surely has to cover everyone .


Re PG claims

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 12:37

Bellyup,

The problem as I see it is how to reap the fruit (if fruit there is!) ...

The legal counsel for the WuC is of the opinion (a priori) that only a claim on behalf of the bank (ie by PWC) will be admissible and that claims by individual KSFIOM depositors (or others on their behalf) will be rejected. If so, well and good. But they refuse to be categoric and offer no firm guarantee that the different claims will in fact be treated in this way.

In the light of this uncertainty, both the DCS (standing in the shoes of depositors who have assigned their rights to them) and at least some of the Insurance companies (on behalf of their clients) have felt it prudent, as a precautionary measure, to submit separate claims. We are assured this can at least do no harm.

The remaining direct depositors who have not claimed through the DCS may also wish keep their options open by doing likewise.

We understand that a member of the WuC has suggested that people should err on the safe side and make direct claims to Kaupthing hf. So there seems to be a certain consensus, albeit tardive, that this would be a wise move. Obviously, the choice is yours ....


PG Claims 2

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 16:30

My post was solely for the intention of allaying the fears of those depositors who have NOT managed to get their individual claim forms sent in.and who are under stress and panic about this at a difficult time.

It IS better to be safe than sorry - cover all bases etc -but even if you cant get them in it would appear that it is not necessary .

IF it is not necessary to make a claim if you have claimed DSC .
What is the difference between the DSC putting a claim in for depositors and PWC putting a claim in for depositors ?

It does seem strange that the WuC left it so late in the day to suggest this
as PWC said months ago that it was their responsibility and that they were dealing with this

ie putting a claim in for all depositors.

I understand that the DST has engaged an Icelandic law firm to deal with these claims.

How much is this going to cost ?


@bellyup - re PG claims 2

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 16:43

Hi bellyup,

"My post was solely for the intention of allaying the fears of those depositors ..."
We too have been very concerned about arousing unnecessary stress and panic (and have tried to allay depositors' fears as far as possible), but felt it was the only reasonable course of action in the circumstances. I can assure you that those of us who spent many hours wrestling with this over the Christmas period and trying to do what we felt was best did not do so for the pure fun of it!

" ... it would appear that it is not necessary"
If we could be sure of that we (on the advice of the only lawyer among our CoI reps) would certainly not have urged depositors to claim.

"What is the difference between the DSC putting a claim in for depositors and PWC putting a claim in for depositors ?"
Basically, the DCS claim is on a par with individual depositors' claims in that the DCS is standing in for all those who claimed under the DCS (just as it stands in for them in the liquidation), whereas PWC is entirely different as it claims on behalf of the Company (who would then have more money in the pot from which to pay dividends, presumably to all creditors). My understanding is that this is legally quite different and that which of the two approaches is most likely to work depends on the exact interpretation of the PG (given to depositors or to the Company?). It appears that Landsbanki depositors, with an apparently quite similar PG, have been officially advised to submit individual claims in addition to the Company one.

"It does seem strange that the WuC left it so late in the day to suggest this ..."
This was in response to DST's approaches in recent days, following PWC's new fence-sitting statement (and came from one member - maybe another opinion...). But they always hedged their bets about the interpretation of the PG.


@Arignaut

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 22:48

I 'm afraid I don't see that there is any difference between the DCS applying and PWC applying as PWC represents the interests of the depositors.

As the DSC will receive further monies from PWC anything coming from the PG will be handled By PWC and then accordingly to the DSC.

The DCS stands in the shoes of the depositors but still once it has complied with its 50K as it has done it then receives all other monies from PWC and hands them to the depositors when it - the DCS has been paid out.

As i understand it according to the PWC statement of some months ago the parental guarantee was given to the company . I presume that the JLs have lawyers to help them in this too and will have been advised accordingly. the JL lawyers are paid from the bank assets so in effect we are already paying for legal advice as well as Edwin Coe and now the services of the Icelandic lawyers.

I will ask you again how much is this all costing?
As the DST is asking for more donations I feel that the depositors have a right to know how it their money is being spent.

From the Kaupthing singers website (10 November 09)
Parental Guarantee
The Winding up Committee of Kaupthing hf have indicated that claims against them must be made by 30 December 2009. We will be making a claim on the basis of the parental guarantee for the shortfall in the company's assets. It should be noted that neither the Winding up Committee nor the Resolution Committee of Kaupthing hf have indicated an estimated return to creditors, and it may be some time before this information becomes available.I have received a number of queries from creditors who have asked whether they should submit claims individually. The Winding up Committee have stated that it is their opinion that only the Joint Liquidators of KSFIOM can make a claim on the basis of the guarantee as KSFIOM was the recipient of the guarantee, not individual creditors. I understand that creditors of Landsbanki Guernsey have made individual claims against their parental guarantee, however, I also understand that the wording of their guarantee is different to that of KSFIOM

Kaupthing hf Mike Simpson (13 February O9)
I attended the creditors meeting in Iceland on 5 February 2009 I attach a copy of the report which was prepared for that meeting. The Resolution Committee were unable to give any indication of how much would be distributed to creditors or when. Whilst I will continue to pursue the balance owed by Kaupthing hf andwill make a claim under the parental guarantee at the appropriate time, I do not expect a significant recovery.

In view of this advice IF the PWC claim was rejected in favour of individual claims they ( PWC) would be liable to the creditors.


@bellyup continued ...

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 23:18

Then it seems we have to agree to disagree.

I am glad to see you have such confidence in PWC. I must say I - and I think many other depositors - have less.

I cannot judge whether PWC would be liable if their claim were to be rejected in favour of individual claims, but I doubt it; they have taken care - particularly in their more recent posts (of 18 and 21 Dec) - to cover themselves: "The Joint Liquidators would again emphasise that the above does not represent legal advice, and cannot be relied upon by creditors of KSFIOM, who should take their own advice in relation to any claim that they may wish to bring against Kaupthing Bank hf in their personal capacity." Would you take the risk of suing them?

You may not see a difference between claims by the DCS (or by individual depositors) and by PWC, but clearly the DCS do (similarly the Insurance Companies) - otherwise why would they have decided to claim? It's not a matter of whose interests they represent, but of how the PG will be interpreted.

For many of us, the late posts by PWC (after two months of questioning by our CoI reps) rang alarm bells and we felt we had to act - as it seems did the DCS who announced their intention to claim as late as 24 Dec - by at least informing depositors that the situation was no longer as clear cut as had been suggested. Maybe we were wrong to act thus. In my view, it would have been difficult to do otherwise (and we would undoubtedly have been criticised for that too: damned either way). To quote PWC: "by making such a claim creditors individual rights are, as a minimum, preserved." Right or wrong, those of us who spent long hours over Christmas trying to find the best way forward and then to find a solution for those wishing to preserve their rights in this way but unable to meet the tight deadline, acted in good faith. Many depositors rely on the guidance of DST and we did what we thought was best given the circumstances. I'm sorry you seem unable to accept that.

As for the cost, I don't think a public forum is the place for such discussion. Suffice it to say that we have suggested that those who avail themselves of the Power of Attorney might be willing to contribute something towards this and we hope that the fighting fund will not suffer much, if at all. It is indeed a risk we chose to take.


If people are being asked to

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 30/12/2009 - 16:55

If people are being asked to fund another legal entity then I would suggest that the public forum is very much the place for a discussion to take place, particulalry as the general consensus is that individual claims are not going to met and the PWC application is the one that is likely to be taken seriously. And it didn't take much time to work that out by the way. Irritating it may well be that statements were made late in the public domain, but thats about all it is, irritaing, because it very unlikely that many depositors will claim and that even if they do that the claim will be met.


Claims

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 07:21

I tried mailing my claim express to Iceland on Dec 27 but it would be a miracle if it reaches them before December 30. I've been looking around this site for info I thought would be up on Dec 28 about the DST handling the claims but can't find anything. I think I read somewhere that the Dec 30 cutoff date is no longer valid - or was that just wishful thinking?


Re claims under PG

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 08:34

Podcar,

I did put it in the shout box last night (28th)!
See latest blog here http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/blog-entry/how-submit-claim-under-paren...

Full details coming soon.

There is no change in the cut-off date; seems that was indeed wishful thinking (we did ask, but not granted).


Thanks - I didn't notice. OK

  • Podcar
  • 13/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 09:26

Thanks - I didn't notice.

OK - read it. I'm still with the DCS so, according to your last sentence, I don't have to worry about my claim arriving in time because the DCS will do it for me. Did I understand correctly?


@podcar

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 29/12/2009 - 12:08

Correct!


Re claims on PG

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 28/12/2009 - 18:44

Hi Caledonia,

Details of how you can still get your claim in on time are being finalised by DST right now and will be posted here and emailed out asap.
So my advice would be to prepare your forms and watch this space for further news!

It is indeed outrageous - and probably not necessary - but the very fact that DCS has decided to claim reinforces our view of "better safe than sorry".


Anrigaut

  • caledonia
  • 14/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 28/12/2009 - 19:29

We have completed our forms and will "watch this space" for further information.
Many thanks for your guidance and indeed for everyones help over this, once again, traumatic experience.


JL panic and questions re bonus

  • Cawdor
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 25/12/2009 - 10:56

Thanks to those here who can offer help and advice.

I've only just picked this up at near midnight Christmas day - no way will any paperwork get from NZ to Iceland in time. If it should happen that we are disadvantaged by the lamentable timing of the JL's announcements heads should roll.

In the meantime (sorry it's the wrong thread) can those compiling questions for the next meeting with these jokers ask whether Simpson and Pratt and anyone else has had a Christmas bonus this year for their work 'on our behalf'. If so, of what proportions. On the basis that they're earning mounds of dosh for PWC they probably will. Seriously, I would like that asked.

Incompetence? Inefficiency? Stop me if you've heard this before.


DST Updates - Latest on Parental Guarantee

  • tonycBrisbaneOz
  • 12/10/08 31/05/13
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 25/12/2009 - 00:57

Hi,

See Anrigaut's Blog entry

http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/blog-entry/dst-update-re-claims-under-p...

I'm sure we'd all like to thank the DST for organising this, especially at this time of year, when I'm sure they'd rather be doing something else.

Regards, TonyC


Thanks to DST on PG claims

  • mesufish
  • 21/10/08 01/10/15
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 25/12/2009 - 09:28

I must echo the words of TonyC and add my heartfelt thanks to the members of DST for putting in so much effort at this time of the year to get this crazy situation better sorted out. When I read the first entry on this subject a couple of days ago I was as appalled as many others at the attitude of the JL. I am sure it has taken considerable pressure to get them to change their minds on this.
It gave me a lot of stress to organize my claim form, due to unavailability of information where I was, lack of facilities and "Christmas is almost here " attitude of the courier companies. In the end I have not been able to send the claim but can do so at great expense on monday if this still turns out to be necessary. ( I would rather give the money as a contribution to the fighting fund) So, once again, thanks to DST for making the process easier.


What late claims?

  • Valentine
  • 18/10/08 31/05/14
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 25/12/2009 - 01:51

May I add my thanks to anrigaut for putting our minds at rest at this particular time of comfort and joy?

When the bank in Reykyavik is inundated with our claims a few days or so after the New Year they will be wondering to themselves what bl##dy idiot gave us such late notification about lodging claims.

Well may they wonder.
Merry Christmas everyone!


Life Companies claiming under PG

  • mr lynton
  • 27/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 24/12/2009 - 07:55

I've contacted Prudential who state they have claimed under the PG themselves on behalf of their bond-holders as they were aware of liquidator's advice. I've still sent mine in anyway (but it may not get there in time). Suggest other bond holders contact their life cos to see if they have submitted a claim for them.