DAG SoA Legal costs

  • Pronto
  • 03/02/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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Posted: Fri, 05/06/2009 - 11:43

Hello everyone.

This whole case has degenerated into a farce.

Why the SoA was voted out is unbeleivable. SoA we get some of our cash back soon.

Liquidation, we might get some of our cash back in 200 years or so
( well long time anyway). Or none at all.

Sorry DAG but I have done a round robin and consulted a number of people Including two official receivers and they were all shocked that the SoA was voted out, they all now say that it could be a very long time before we receive any money, if at all.

By the time all the BIG investors get their big chunk and all the legal bills are paid at the end of the line, when ever that will be, then a few of us, I imagine will be dead and gone.

Me, I voted for the SoA. I would dearly loved to be proven WRONG, however I think not.

As far as legal cost are concerned, well if DAGS legal team were shocked at the motion by IOMT to have costs awarded against KSFIOM then they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Fact: we know that this is not going to happen.

Fact the IOMT will push this forward until all avenues are exhausted.

Fact: our legal cost will continue to spiral out of control in defending ourselves against bogus claims.

Then we will ask for our expences to be awarded against the IOMT over this and
on -on-on-on it goes.

SoA we get some of our cash back Liquidation, little chance of getting any money soon.

I wait with bated breath

Pronto

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Pronto

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 15:23

With regards to DAG's SOA and Winding Up Petition legal costs.

First of all, I applaud DAG Strategy Team in requesting expenses to date relating to PWC's involvement in the SOA and expenses incurred by DAG in defeating the SOA be paid for by the IOMT, but having read the skeleton arguments recently submitted to the IOM courts, I note that IOMT do not oppose DAG's SOA Legal Costs being recovered from our assets in KSFIOM, and nor does the DAG Strategy Team either (in terms of they are prepared for their costs being jointly recovered from both our bank and the Treasury if necessary).

DAG’s costs for the Winding Up Petition should on the other hand, and according to DAG’s own skeleton argument, be paid for by the Treasury, but if not accepted by the courts, “it should be paid out of the assets of KSFIOM in the usual way”.

Only at the end of the skeleton argument does the concept of a Badthampton Order arise (whereby costs are offset until creditors have been paid first and based on an apparently redundant English legal precedent, dealt with in slightly more detail by IOMT's submission) but what if this proposed order, or the fact the IOM taxpayer should pay for DAG's expenses in defeating the SOA and dealing with the Winding Up Petition, are rejected by the IOM courts? What happens then?

Will the IOM courts be deemed "corrupt"? Will the case be "dragged to the mainland"? Will DAG Strategy Team activists and it’s legal advisors still wish to take their ever-spiraling expenses from the assets of KSFIOM thus reducing the pot to be shared? And what is this figure likely to be, and what expenses will be included in this figure? For example, will it be just bona fide Legal costs invoiced by Edwin Coe, John Wright, Dominic Chambers et al? Will it include costs incurred by the HNW group who also opposed the IOMT? Will it also include expenses incurred by the tireless voluntary work of the DAG Strategy Team, any of whom can simply cease to further contribute to the "campaign" on a whim, should they so wish?

Perhaps those depositors, especially those that are not fully protected and voted for the SOA, will not be in agreement to have those costs associated with opposing it being used to diminish the communal pot of realizable assets from our bank, and request DAG's legal costs be borne solely by those who signed up to be represented by DAG legal team? I'm sure this issue has been thought through behind the scenes, but I have not read any statement from DAG Strategy Team on this forum concerning this point. With all the "chatter" now turning to replacing PWC as liquidator with little discussion of the actual cost of doing so, one does wonder if Pronto's gloomy picture posted above, for which he was shamefully bullied for making, could be a distinct possibility.

Before anyone criticizes me for raising this, or tries to silence me on the basis I am "stirring" as per usual, I suggest this issue of sufficient importance for you to read the skeleton arguments beforehand and show me where I have misinterpreted what I have written. They can be found here: http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/blog-entry/incredibly-iomt-asks-court-g... where you will also note the fact DAG Strategy Team's legal expenses could be payable from KSFIOM's assets is not actually mentioned in the blog.


Replacing MS

  • Brabander
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 15:39

Chris I understand that you are still sore that the SoA was rejected and some of your subsequent comments may still reflect this. The fact is that MS recommended the SoA, albeit luke warm when questioned. He should not have done so as he is supposed to represent the Company (KSFIOM) and by recommending the SoA he implicitly agreed that the Company should bear some of the expenses related to the SoA.
A number of depositors have therefore posed legitimate questions regarding the independence and professionalism of MS.
We have been given incorrect information by him on a number of occasions, some of the errors in his numbers have been horrendous and have shown his lack of control over the numbers!
If he had been my accountant I would not have retained him after errors of such magnitude.

His primary objective should be to manage the bank so that maximum dividends can be paid to the creditors of the bank. He has however taken several actions which clearly contradict this primary duty.

The concern that DAG members have regarding this situation is not idle "chattter" as you claim.
You claim to be concerned about the cost of replacing MS but you conveniently disregard the cost of retaining a person who has demonstrated on a number of occasions that he is not independant (he is clearly influenced by the IOMT) and his professionalism and competence is open to question.
You are entitled to your opinion but I detect a lack of constructive criticism in some of your comments.

I would also like to point out to other DAG members that not all the DAG site contributors are who they claim to be and they may well be using this site to desiminate misinformation and outright lies.
We have after all no way of validating their credentials! Enough said.


brabander,

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 20:15

It is quite noticeable that your whole post deals with just the Simpson issue (of which I made one tiny, passing comment) and nothing else!

Why is that? There is a whole other thread on the Simpson topic on which I have posted already. Why not post there? Are you attempting to draw attention away from the main points of my post above, by any chance?

Are you also still insinuating in your last paragraph that old chestnut that I am some kind of government agent? Strange that I have been verified by my contribution to the DAG IT fund, whereas your own profile shows no info at all.

And if you bothered to read any of my other posts you would see I have no problems with coming to terms with the SOA being defeated, so long as the IOMT pays out at the speed it says it will pay out at in the media. But let's not forget, there is no statutory timeframe for the IOMT to pay out the DCS to, so until it starts doing so I and other depositors reliant on it are at risk of it not doing so.


Pronto: I don't say much

  • calpespain
  • 12/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 22:51

Pronto: I don't say much here, but log-in and read to keep up to date regularly. Pronto, in the end you will be better off with the liquidation and the DCS than any SOA. You will see, but whoever you have spoken may just come form the financial world and be accountant's. You should know by now, that you have to include accountants that work with bankers in the same light as bankers and financial advisors. You can't trust a word they say, as all, just want to relieve you of your money and take it from you in anyway that they can. I too voted for the SOA but only because under it, I would get my money back quicker, but I too realise that under liquidation we all stand a good chance of getting more back over time. So don't get yourself too depressed over this.I take it that you are under 100k's then, so you should get all of yours back if you have joint account. So no big deal, if you are over £100k, then you should have voted down the SOA in any event. As others have indicated here, under liquidation there's a chance we will get back 80-90%, that too has to be good. With the DAG group holding out it just could be in the end they pull out of the bag a 100% recovery for us all. Not much hope, but there could be an avenue that they are chasing. So there you go, have a beer or buy a cask, but you couldn't be in any worse position than me. I've lost in 3 organizations and some I know will be gone forever, more than I had in Landsbanki and Kaupthing put together.( a lifetimes work of buy and selling property, gone) But life's too short to sit around with IF ONLY's get on with it and make the best of it all. I wrote the lot off, to make me feel good about the trickle that will now come back. I once travelled business class around the world and stayed only in luxury hotels, now I travel economy and stay in apartments, but I'm still alive. Life's like that, make the best of what we have and don't condemn the members of DAG for what they have stood up for a believe in. Be happy that we didn't loose the lot ! Have faith! and enjoy life and being alive. Pronto since writing this there have been several short posts made taking you to task. If you are a depositor then you should as they say, understand this more than indicated here, but it just could be that you are not able to fully understand. But please read what I have said and have faith in those that have put so much effort into this for us all to reap the reward, be that 80 or 100%.


pronto's farce

  • banna
  • 15/10/08 01/03/10
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 18:47

No Pronto for most of us this is not a farce, but a tragedy!
Are you so incapabe of understanding the diffedrence ? And that the only farcical element in the story is you?


This is the most unintelligent post to date

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 14:05

Yes goodbye cretin - go back to high school to even match the IQ of the average teenager - I wonder if you have donated anywhere like the DAG, Legal or ng's website? - certainly you are not capable of any other contributions. Bye bye crawl back under your stone and disappear...


goodbye, Pronto

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 13:21

goodbye, Pronto


pronto

  • bobwin
  • 23/12/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 12:55

you are newcomer to this site but you seem to know everything like a teenager--read and learn b4 you make comments---ok?


legal costs

  • bobwin
  • 23/12/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 12:52

The SOA was contrived by the IOMG/T to cover up all the wrong doings of them and their cohorts--simple.

Why would they spend 2 million quid on this?

Back up and smell the flowers!

The whole IOM action is to cover up the real issues and we in aggregate were against it.

WTF they should pay the costs and our lost interest and our expenses for needlessly delaying liquidation.

It is transparently clear they did not want this and did not want to instigate the DCS.

ONLY to protect the IOM and their " reputation" and when we ask them to pay the costs, they are mysified--

you cannot be serious as McEnroe said many times----get a life and pay your dues you *****************.


pronto= cretin

  • mr lynton
  • 27/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 05/06/2009 - 12:33

Pronto,
you are obviously a cretin with no understanding of the prospective liquidation process so please don't post rubbish like this.


SoA

  • Pronto
  • 03/02/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 06/06/2009 - 18:28

My My My.Thank you all for your comments. In the BIG peoples world there is a thing called DEMOCRACY. where people have a say in a subject without being called all sorts of names and being, quite frankly, bullied.

I am not a "cretin" a fool, idiot etc etc.and I do not need to "crawl under a stone from whence I came.

I have always said that I have little understanding in these matters and that I would be a foot sodier and do what I can. Read my posts.

I have £1000,000 invested in two accounts and I voted where I thought best.

As far as contributing goes well read on my insulting bullying freinds;

I served 22 years in the British Armed forces. I fought in two wars, did nine tours of Northern Ireland. stood in to clean your rubbish when in the binmens strike.

I stood in and risked my life on numerous occassions when the firemen went on stike, twice.

My regiment were called back from leave when Pan Am 101 crashed in Lockerbie.

The firemen/police could not cope with the devastation. We took charge of the horrors of collecting, bitsof men,women and children strewn over a vast area.

Soldiers broke down in tears carrying out a task which horrified the nation.

I served in the Gulf war, saw what Saddam did to Kuwait, every bit as horrifying as lockerbie. We liberated kuwait.

I have been shot at, bombed, gassed, assaulted all in defence of this septered isle.

And you tell ME to contribute. Well my freinds, I think that I have contributed more than all my attackers put together have.

I was run down by a careless driver, left paralised from the high chest down, my arms do not work, I struggle to feed myself. None of my organs work my hands do not work either.

I voted for the SoA because tge moneyin my fund is there to look after me for the rest of my miserable life.

Thanks Calpespain you are the only one who took the time to try and explaing what is going on.

I hope you find some relief.

As for tghe rest of you. I hope that you also find some peace and et your money back

pronto


A huge sincere apology from me to you brave person and soldi

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 12:30

Dear Pronto,

Having read your post want to apologies profusely, deeply and sincerely for my unfair post to you. I do not usually crittise people for their right to freedom of speech. It’s just, in my/our defense, many of we high net worth depositors and those particularly fighting on our behalf with no rest for 8 months a really touchy about pro SOA posts and challenging the efforts of many worthwhile depositors huge unceasing efforts. Most of us are very anti the IOM Gov and Mike Simpson who seems to be their puppet. So anything all the members of the DAG/DST, HNW team (and I have been working along with them here and there some of the time, when I can) are totally anti there motives and actions. As an Action Group we ideally need to be 100% United (which in reality is never really 100% possible – yes everyone is part of a democracy with their own thoughts actions and votes), and so we are happy that even a few smaller depositors still support us including some who have been paid out in full like Elgee.

You are not one of those small depositors, and I wish before anyone else, considering your circumstances, for your money to be returned to you as quickly as possible to alleviate any extra suffering for you. Personally I think you should be number one priority to put pressure on both gov’s for humanity’s sake. Would you consider it – your story in the media? I know you will be proud, but if they cannot consider the suffering of someone as yourself who has served HMG so well then shame, shame shame on them.

I really am sorry to have criticized your post and realize after reading your two long posts that you certainly do not need extra aggravation from any source, and even writing the posts must be very tiring for you in your state of health. I have to say that many of us are suffering with our health and this situation has robbed me not only from my own life savings (30 years worth gone within 5 weeks in (AAA rated!? KSFIOM), but also 30 years of my late husbands peak earnings as a best selling music author who died of Leukemia in 1991. His contracts were with dinosaurs Warner Bros and EMI, and I had to fight with litigation to get money owed to him over a period on 12 years – after 4 years of litigation (and 12,000 pounds of Solicitors) fees extreme draining on my health crossing over with 4 years of my mothers dire failing health and eventual death ( lost my inheritance from her too in the Bank). I only just got straight from all this last summer when I thought I can now see a day where I can be my old self again and never have to deal with solicitors ever again hopefully for the rest of my life, then on August 26th deposited my savings with KSFIOM!. So I am trying to earn back my late husbands Royalties for the 3rd time! Legal suffocation is the enemy of all creative people and here we all are all our lives suffocated and on hold – shame on you Allan Bell and Tony Brown by not looking after depositors on your economically sound Island and instead of thinking aproaching HMG as "cap in hand", but doing it with stregth integrety and conviction with the backing of the UK Treasusy in February.

Thank you for wishing us all peace and an end to this – this is what I wish for all too. We must wish all 11,000 of us and all our united support 100%. May this come to an end soon, and I hope your peronal suffering can be eased where you may be able to still find medical help with the help stem cell therapy or other successful therapy in your lifetime. Sorry again, I felt very sad as I read your letter – I wish you only the very best.


fight theft

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 13:05

You write: "we are happy that even a few smaller depositors still support us including some who have been paid out in full like Elgee."

I'm sorry you seem to think that other smaller depositors no longer support you. Had you considered that those who voted SOA were also thinking this could be to benefit the of all, in the same way those who voted against it did?

I too am impressed with the amount of voluntary work Elgee is putting into all this given that he has apparently been paid out in full. It's not often one comes across such philanthropy, and given his spiky postings it shows there are hidden depths one could not have imagined!


Chris....

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 13:36

Maybe it would be good to do a survey on how many fully paid out depositors still log onto this site and would continue to support, fund or help or care about others, who have lost much more than their deposit amounts that are impossible to re earn, and are putting in all their time and effort, all unpaid, at a time they most need to replace and re earn some of their savings. There have been some posts to the tune of: "thank you HNW posts for standing in the way of me getting my under 1,000 to 50,000 faster/sooner - the DST and HNW have tried to do the best for all without stepping on anyone. It is nice to know some smaller depostors still stand united with all classes of depositor, but I wonder how many?


Fight theft

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 15:12

I have no idea how many fully paid out depositors (or who were lucky in pulling their funds out in time) still log on, let alone slave away with the lawyers against the IOMG in the same way that some members of the DAG Strategy Team do. As I stated, it never fails to make an impression on me that those that do, do, and that those with so much at stake are so certain in taking a advice from those that, as far as I can make out, have nothing at stake at all. Such trust shows a belief that "Robin Hood" is alive and well.

Of course lawyers, and those benefiting from incurring legal costs, cannot necessarily be seen in the same light, as there is a financial incentive and this will presumably not go unpaid in some form. If you look at the DST "skeleton arguments" you will see that such costs and expenses will ultimately be deducted from our assets, should the IOM courts rule this. In the same way, it will be deducted from the potential assets of those that did not wish to incur these costs, such as Pronto and myself. My understanding is it will have no impact on those that have been paid out already, except on their claims to the minimal Interest generated by their deposits between Oct 08 and May 09 (or earlier, if EPS 1 and 2 had been applied for and paid).

I've not seen any of the "thank you HNW's for standing in my way of getting my (small) deposit back" posts, but will do you the courtesy of not suggesting you are making this up. However, I can confirm that a number of pro-SOA postings are attacked in an animal-pack like-way, as illustrated by this very thread. The fact this turned out to be embarrassing for those that insulted Pronto, does not excuse the fact it happens regularly. However I do greatly respect that you found the time to apologise to Pronto, unlike those others.

I can't help but feel that if posters who have a different opinion to others were not attacked in such a way, or labelled government agents, stupid, trolls, cretins etc. then there may be more cohesion on the site and the opportunity of a cleaner debate. You admit to almost hatred of the IOMG, the liquidator etc., but unfortunately hatred does not always provide for the clearest decision making. History tells us that the flames of hatred can easily be stoked by others who seem to have a similar agenda, or be inadvertently stoked by those whose interests may actually be the same as yours.

This forum thread appears to be as good an example of this lesson as one can get, and personally, I always like to keep an open mind.


Responses

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 10:06

I am not condoning the replies from certain Depositors, and there really is NO excuse for Schoolboy abuse on here BUT we are all in the same BOAT and the enemy is the IOMT who decieved us, let US put All our Energies into Legally Docking These underhanded Tricksters..

... FIGHT where we all get the Benefit of the 100% return of our money, Costs + Interest + COMPENSATION from the FSA which I feel we all deserve for them for F******G UP!

There has been a Default by the KSF IOM BANK I think Contrived ... if it were us as individuals in DEFAULT we would be charged Interest Plus Administration Costs...

So I think we need to be advised by the DAG LEGAL TEAM as to our Next Move!

As someone said "We have WON the Battle Now lets WIN the War " TOGETHER!

Aurora


Those that were quick to

  • tsunamivictim
  • 11/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 07:14

Those that were quick to criticise should be as quick to apologise. I hope they are ashamed.


Pronto's posting

  • grapow
  • 20/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 06:51

Well, I for one feel thoroughly ashamed of the abuse hurled at this man. I completely share his views on the much maligned SOA but what is done is done. Nevertheless there is a growing trend here that if you do not show 100% alignment with the majority (actually didnt the SOA actually receive a najority vote by normal," first past the post" standards), you get called childish names. Good on you Pronto for daring to be different and many thanks for your service to the country. Our lives too are permanently altered for the worse, by this dreadful fiasco and in that alone we all stand side by side.
For goodness sake will we not allow people to have their own views. Pronto has now demonstrated very powerfully, that he has more right than most of us to make comments which might be right or wrong/ tow the line or not? Just cut him some slack!


Pronto

  • chris watson
  • 23/10/08 31/03/10
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  • Sat, 06/06/2009 - 18:41

I am sorry to read such abuse from other depositors. Unfortunately, this is the way some are and it's inconceivable that another's contrary opinion, or one's entitlement to it, can dare be expressed without insults being thrown.


Thumper was right: If you

  • IceCrusher
  • 14/10/08 25/10/11
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 06/06/2009 - 18:52

Thumper was right: If you can't say anything nice, don't say nuthin' at all.


SoA

  • Pronto
  • 03/02/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 07/06/2009 - 16:35

Hello Everyone.

I would like to thank you all for your supportive comments. I am sorry that I sounded off so much, not my usual modus operandi.

I hope that we all get a positive result over this liquidation vote.

thanx

pronto


Your Story Is A Very Sad One Pronto.

  • colinalvin63
  • 28/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 10:42

I was so sorry to hear your story and what has happened to you Pronto. I think that your story should be added to the Depositors Stories Section - it would really drive home the injustice of all this, especially to someone such as yourself who has served this country to admirably.

I think that we have all sounded off at times on here due to the frustration of this terrible business and the way the various government and financial bodies have let us all down and continue to attempt to swindle us of what is due back to us. When I read your initial post it was quite evident that you didn't understand how long we have all been deliberating over the SOA, and that it was a democratic vote which threw it out. The IOMG have not been honest with us - all along they have been attempting to defend their own reputation as a financial centre - thier interests have not been aligned with depositors who have lost their savings. They have wasted precious time and squandered funds pursuing a cause which had no noticeable advantages to liquidation. It was pure selfishness on the part of the IOMG.

I hope you can forgive the people that sniped at you - I guess they were frustrated at your lack of understanding.

Do consider adding your story - I don't know what the link is, but if you scout around on the two sites, you should find it fairly easily. There are some really moving stories there.

All the best to you.

Regards, Colinalvin63


Pronto

  • lorraine
  • 14/10/08 14/07/10
  • unspecified
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  • Wed, 10/06/2009 - 16:23

Regardless of whether people agree with posts or not there is no excuse for rudeness. We all lost together, we'll all get back or not together. If we don't stick together we have nothing.

It is perfectly reasonable to disagree and put forward your most persuasive arguments to change someone's opinion but to make personal insults is not.

I note that some people were gracious enough to apologise but might I suggest that any further posts from Banna, SteenJP and Mr Lynton are removed from the site until they are polite enough to apologise for their rudeness.


Comments

  • Pronto
  • 03/02/09 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Tue, 16/06/2009 - 20:16

Fight Theft. thank you for your sincere apology and other comments.

The whole debacle has certainly taken it's toll on many people, and nerves are frayed.

The IOMG should hang it's head in shame.

Mr Brown, who states that he is a caring and honest man. Should also do the same.

As far as I can see, he appears to be only interested in himself, and hanging on to a position which he was never elected to.

I do not know what is going to happen, all I can say is that I was dilligent in how I invested my money to ensure that I did not become a burden to the state. Now that money has been stolen I really do not see how I can get out of this whole.

I have to go. best of luck to everyone

Pronto