DAG RECOMMENDATION REQUIRED ON EPS 2

  • hopeful
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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Posted: Thu, 05/03/2009 - 16:37

I am a depositor in the over 50k group and note that there is a clause on page 7 of the guidance notes accompying the early payment 2 application forms (received today) that states "The Treasury has the right to vote in relation to any restructuring or scheme of arrangement proposed by the Liquidator Provisional/Liquidator in proportion to the payments made to KSFIOM depositors".

I imagine that most of us would wish to apply for these early 10k payments which are expected to be made around the 19th March. However the above clause seems to suggest that the IOMG will automatically gain voting rights for the SOA for every depositor who applies for the 10k (max) loan under EPS 2.

If this is the case, the IOMG will benefit in their aim to get the SOA approved and its a crafty way of doing so. This is just another example of how badly the IOMG have treated us. Firstly they manipulate the winding up process and cause a significant delay with the various court adjournments and then they create a situation where they induce depositors to accept an early payment so that they can hopefully get their way and proceed with the SOA.

I think that this latest stroke by IOMG will certainly disadvantage those depositors who would prefer Liquidation over SOA when it comes to the vote.

I would like to know if the DAG core team are recommending depositors in the over 50k group to accept the early 50k payment at this stage or stand back until after the vote on the SOA.

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EPS2, Recomm. For > 50K Depositors

  • mikeexpat
  • 31/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 06:24

I am > 50K Depositor. I am not a lawyer or a financial adviser. After taking into account to date activities of IOMG and other blogs on this site regarding past activities of IOMG I decided the following in order to keep 100% my rights to further litigation. And I recommend for all > 50K Depositors to do the same.
1. I have not applied and will not apply for 1,000 Early Compensation.
2. I will not apply for 10,000 Early Compensation.
3. I will not apply for DCS (Deposit Insurance DCS 50,000), as I will get more than this from liquidation.
4. I will vote for liquidation.


Surely the operative words are...

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 04:51

"...in proportion to the payments made to KSFIOM depositors".

Therefore when it comes to the vote, you will still have your vote as an individual as will IOMG as an individual, but in value terms your vote will be x-10k whilst IOMG's will be y+10k


IOMG gain voting rights on the SOA with EPS 2

  • hopeful
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 10:48

Hi Lancara. You seem to agree that the IOMG do in fact gain voting rights by introducing EPS 2.

Taking a very rough calculation assuming 9,000 account holders accept the 10k early payment the IOMG will pay out £90m. Therefore in value terms IOMG will have approx 10% of the voting power (£90m/879m total deposits). Does this make sense?

Add to this the voting power of the insurance companies (who are keen on the SOA) it seems to me that those who prefer the liquidation route are fighting an uphill struggle.

I was expecting the DAG core team to comment on this matter but to date they have not done so. The question again is "Should depositors in the over 50k group who prefer liquidation accept the 10k early payment at this stage or hold back until after the vote on the SOA"


Hopeful

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 12:55

The early payment scheme will end once an SOA is accepted therefore if you hold back you will get nothing from the EPS and have to wait for the first payout under the SOA


Ramsey resident

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 14:19

Can you tell me where it says the EPS2 will end once /if a SOA is accepted?


Time Limit re Early Payment Scheme

  • Anonymous
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 15:29

Hi bellyup.

Perhaps Ramsey Resident remembers reading about the EPS time limitation in the IOM guidance notes for the £1,000 EPS. I have extracted the relevant paragraph from those notes and displayed it below. I have not received anything yet regarding EPS2 so don't know if the same is contained therein.

"What is the deadline for returning the Forms?
No deadline has been set for returning the Account Holder Information Form and Application Form.
It is intended that the Early Payment Scheme will continue to make payments to eligible Account
Holders until either the Liquidator advises Treasury that an initial distribution to KSF IOM creditors
can be made or the DCS is able to start making compensation payments or, any other source.
Once a closing date for the Early Payment Scheme has been set, Treasury will advise everyone of
the closing date by advertising in the local press and also placing a notice on the Isle of Man
Government and FSC websites."


undone - very dfferent have

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 15:42

undone - very dfferent have posted :- March 2010 or within 30 days notice of IoMG

http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/forum-topic/dag-recommendation-required...


bellyup

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 15:10

I have read this somewhere recently but cannot remember exactly where (probably in the EPS paperwork somewhere but have posted that back)

The 'early payment' schemes as their names suggest are only an interim hardship measure to aid depositors in this 'limbo' period we are currently in and until it is finally decided what is happening to the bank

Once that is decided, Liquidation / DCS or SOA, then the process starts of final distribution of assets and the EPS becomes redundant or not necessary


Thanks all

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 16:27

Thanks everyone for your replies


Bellyup - found EPS-2

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 15:27

1 year dealine 2010

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/cso//ksf_eps2.pdf

  1. Making a claim
    (1) A claim for an early payment must be made in the form and manner specified in the KSF
    IOM Early Payments Guidance Notes, and must be made before —
    (a) 31st March 2010; or
    (b) such earlier date as the Treasury may prescribe at least 30 days in advance.

Bellyup - this is from IoMG site on EPS-1

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 15:23

Bellyup, this is from EPS-1, still tracking down info on EPS-2 would it be "that" different

What is the deadline for returning the Forms?
No deadline has been set for returning the Account Holder Information Form and Application Form.
It is intended that the Early Payment Scheme will continue to make payments to eligible Account Holders until either the Liquidator advises Treasury that an initial distribution to KSF IOM creditors can be made or the DCS is able to start making compensation payments or, any other source.
Once a closing date for the Early Payment Scheme has been set, Treasury will advise everyone of the closing date by advertising in the local press and also placing a notice on the Isle of Man Government and FSC websites.


EP{S2

  • Tricky Dicky
  • 24/10/08 30/05/09
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  • Thu, 05/03/2009 - 17:06

Hi hopeful,
I remember with EPS 1 this question arose, and my comments then were it is for the individual to decide if they should take up this offer or not.
Its initial conception was as a hardship payment to be 'paid by Christmas', for depositors who had most of their money tied up with KSFIOM or for those who perhaps had immediate bills to pay. My response at the time and again today is, if you really need the money then claim it, if you have finances from other sources then you have the choice. It is each members individual decision dependant upon their individual circumstances.


Suspect EPS 2 different to EPS 1

  • hopeful
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 05/03/2009 - 18:42

Hi Tricky Dicky

I understand your thinking but this time it appears that by accepting EPS 2 the IOMG gain voting rights on the SOA. I would like someone on the forum to confirm my understanding of the clause on page 7 of the guidance notes accompanying the application form for the EPS 2 (see my original forum post above which repeats this clause).


EPS 2

  • hopeful
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 05/03/2009 - 16:41

Sorry for the typo mistake in last para of my forum post. The early payment is 10k not 50k.


EPS 2

  • TORPEDO
  • 04/11/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 12:06

Please everyone if you can possibly do without claiming on the up to 10K from the EPS 2 then please do not claim. IOMG needs to clear two very high hurdles to have their shamefully inadequate SOA approved. They need a majority in number AND they need three fourths in value.
Obviously the insurance companies want the SOA 'cos under the DCS they get very little, and they speak for a large chunk of the cash deposits. For every person who signs away their rights to 10K, the IOMG clocks up another vote which they will use to try to force the SOA on us.

Remember, all this cash they are promising to pay from their reserves amounts to the same kind of figure that the "liquidators provisionally" already have control of (and could have paid us out 10p in the pound before Christmas if the Court had not been led down the garden path of the SOA).

Most of the public in the Isle of Man think their Government is giving us money from their reserves, not realising all we are being offered is the chance to borrow our own money, if we sign away our rights to it. With the money recovered so far in the liquidation, the Government knows it will get its cash back.


Avoiding the problem

  • lorraine
  • 14/10/08 14/07/10
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 12:25

Perhaps someone 'legal' could comment but I believe it is possible to claim the 10k but to write on the form that you only accept it on the condition this clause is eliminated from the contract. If everyone does that and alerts the press then they may be pressured into paying up anyway.


Torpedo

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 12:24

Sorry but most people in the IOM are well aware that the £150 million committed from reserves is a loan against bank deposits, just like the UK FSA 2.5 billion given to ING is to be recovered from KSF UK deposits. There is no such thing as a 'free lunch'!!

The iom approach is therefore identical to the UK - I have said before that IOM taxpayers should not be funding depositors in a bank failure that was not caused by any action in the IOM

With two early payment schemes now and upping the compensation limit to £50K the afternoon before the failure, the IOM has been eager to help depositors and I for one, although a depositor, am sick of all the IOM bashing going on on this website by a tiny minority of depositors


@Ramsey resident: So you're sick of all the IoM bashing......

  • follow_the_tao
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 13:35

The "tiny minority" you refer to are being treated unfairly, or gain vitually nothing from the SOA, and are having to wait months and months to recieve anything. I didn't ask the IoMG for an EPS, I'd just like a payment from my own money, it's the IoMG that has put the EPS together because they didn't want to make the DCS payout in timely fashion, or a "liquidation".

The IoM FSC, and the directors of Kaupthing, interestingly two groups with a significant overlap, set out to protect the money 'upstreamed' off the Isle, moved because there is apparently no opportunity to place it here, interesting financial centre, and failed miserably. It is the nature of government that it assumes the responsibility for failures that happen in it's agencies, the general principle, legally and otherwise is very well established.

When it comes to an SoA, I don't see that I'm getting much subsidy, if any, currently I'm actually looking at a loss, and the current inconvenience whilst the IoMG try to organise this heath robinson scheme whilst they claim they have an operational DCS is simply unnecessary and ridiculous.

I vey much take your point that with the IoMG there is no free lunch.

You don't agree with any 'subsidy', as you put it. Fair enough, I hope you'll be voting for liquidation.


Hear Hear, No one trust the IOMG anymore

  • klauseriksen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 14:35

I agree, to many of us it appears that the IOMG is simply manipulating numbers to support the local voters/depositors on the IOM of which most are likely to belong to the <50K Sterling category. As it looks now many of us have lost our trust in the IOMG after their long delays and little tricks such as the exchange rate calculation date which did not correspond to the well established rules in liquidation. To me it is quite incredible that we after nearly 6 Months are as much in the dark as we were 8 Oct. I for one would like to see the liquidation go ahead now and take my chances with the percentage that is paid back through this without any further manipulation and so called schemes of payment as I am virtually certain there will be absolutely no advantage to me as a >50K Euro and US $ depositor . In short my message to the IOMG would be keep your money, I don’t intend to apply or rely on any of your so-called schemes but let me get what is left of my money through an orderly and transparent liquidation that follows the law without any underhand redistribution of wealth.


follow_the_tao

  • Ramsey resident
  • 22/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 06/03/2009 - 14:30

No I will not be voting for liquidation because if another bank here goes under before October 09 then the 150 million committed to an SOA will then, under liquidation and the DCS, have to be spread between two failures

As I understand it under the SOA, the money is committed to this SOA only

I have also had my EPS 2 forms and these were signed and returned within half an hour of being received

In terms of upstreaming, if our FSC had not made the bank switch from Rekjavik to London then our £550 million would have gone for ever in an Icelandic black hole, never to be seen again. At least in London it is secured from Kaupthing Hf seizing it and available for eventual distribution by Ernst and Young

Like every story there are two sides and few who post on this site are taking off their blinkers and accepting reality