Brief Thoughts on the JLs Jan-March 2015 Data

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
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Posted: Tue, 21/04/2015 - 16:25

Hi Folks,

My Latest Thoughts after taking into account the JLs Jan - March 2015 Figures - you may not agree with me

  1. Returns for Jan - March 2015 were ZERO. My data is based on GBP, apologies to my DAG Colleagues who invested in other currencies.

  2. No change re the remaining loans due back, but JLs saying one full loan of £2.5m repaid in early April 2015. Remaining loans total £26.000m at 31.3.2015.

  3. FX Returns for Jan – March 2015 show a loss of £0.3m (now +£12.8m). Starting figure for Jan15 is +£13.1m, Jan 2014 was +£14.2m, Jan 2013 was +£13.2m and Jan 2012 was +£15.2m.

  4. ‘Unresolved’ around £2.585m + the £1.500m ‘Unclaimed’ = £4.085m at end of March 2015. JLs need to finalise the ‘Unresolved’ now.

  5. Liquidation costs – JLs now saying they cannot estimate these costs from 9.1.2015 Progress Report onwards.

  6. The ‘write off’ situation, no change at £3.4m. Surely this will change very shortly.

  7. The ‘set off’ situation no change currently £15.2m.

  8. Re the PG – No change - The return of our Capital means any return from the PG will be towards paying us some interest back. Hopefully, our JLs manage to sell off the PG to a Third Party. There appeared to be some movement by the Icelandic Government in it’s objective to lift Capital Controls. It appeared exemption had been granted to LBI hf (Landsbanki) to repay 400bn Krona ($3.2bn) to Priority Creditors. Having read some of the stuff from Sigrún Davíðsdóttir's Icelog I’m still not sure we are that much further forward (purely personal view). More info is expected on this.

  9. As at the March 2015 data, Loans still due totalled £26.0m. But as said above a £2.5m full loan was repaid in early April. Based on currency, 84.399% of loans, come from mainly Euros plus some USD & Swiss Francs. Within that % Euros account for 60.243% and circa 50.845% of all loans due.

  10. No more info on the end date of the Liquidation, but keep saying the JLs must surely push forward now to finalise the loan book quickly (one way or another), then the PG and/or perhaps sell off both as one entity – let’s hope so. And look at and finalise any Litigation, outwith that of the loan book.

  11. Think we have an approx net £1.770m towards interest payments to Creditors as at 31.3.2015.

  12. The £2.5m loan repaid in early April would mean – according to my figures that we have around £4.27m ‘free’ cash available to pay creditors after allowing for the remaining ‘Unresolved and ‘Unclaimed’. Although we do not know what is required for the remainder of Liquidation Expenses. It would appear the JLs are not prepared to make an estimate for this at present.

As said in one of my previous updates we need 0.4% or around £3.5m to pay the initial contractual interest.
Creditors entitled to contractual interest in excess of 5% would receive the amount due in excess of 5% up to the 8.10.2008. Creditors not entitled to contractual interest would receive 4% on amounts owed up to 8.10.2008. This amount would be small as the relevant creditors are typically trade creditors; the total value of such claims is low. Once the above two steps have been completed all creditors will have received their interest entitlements up to 8.10.2008 (In respect of further interest payments, JLs were expected to apply to the Court to seek directions on the calculation methodology – as per January 2015 Progress report).

‘All Creditors would’ (then) ‘receive interest at 4% pa’. ‘Paying this interest to creditors could amount to up to £36.2m per annum, but would of course be limited by the extent to which cash was available’. Quoted data taken from JLs info in January 2013 update.

I also noted in the JLs January 2015 Progress report that it was intended that one further dividend would be paid to creditors in respect of each class of interest. Timing and amount would depend on realisation of remaining assets. To me that meant Loan Book, PG and Litigation. I thought based on what I read that some Creditors might get two payments.

I will as Anrigaut has done, attempt to contact the JLs for clarification on whether they expect to pay out a dividend to those due ‘contractual interest’ in the near future or not. Also try and establish whether some creditors might get two payments or not and also ask if the £2.5m came from the sale or liquidation of the London Property – a figure of £2.8m was quoted in JLs July 2014 Progress Report.

As always take care,

And God Bless,

Gordon 45

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Interest & court application

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Wed, 01/07/2015 - 08:58

Hi there

I'm one of the DAG COI members, if anyone reading didn't know.

This is just to note that I have followed up with the JLs to find out where the court application had got to - as of early June, they were still waiting for a date to hear the application on many items, including the interpretation of the statutory provisions on any interest distributions (that may or may not be what our bond company was referring to). Once I've heard back, I'll post back here.

I've said it before, but anyone put in the position that you have been by their bond company has our sympathy - it really is rubbing salt in the wounds, and I quite understand both your frustration and your desire for a more clearly defined timeframe so that you can assess your position.

Best wishes
K E


Held to ransom by IOM Bond Providers

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
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  • Thu, 02/07/2015 - 11:58

Thank you K E and everyone else who has commented since I raised this problem.

As a Bondholder with only £20000 in KS&F the potential impact of these delays is huge financially and makes a mockery of the statement "received all our money back".

Due to this situation as previously stated the Bond provider, Old Mutual International is not only witholding a cash balance of over £11,000 but can seemingly continue to enforce contractual charges on the whole amount of the original deposit in the Bond ad infinitum, in fact until it can be surrendered which as far as I can ascertain will not be possible while there are still unrealised assets which at the moment is only £95.56 in interest for KS&F.
Unfortunately in my case the protracted liquidation is costing me £600 + every quarter in management charges even though there is nothing to manage and I also have no access to the cash available within the bond !!

Bondholders deposits in KS&F all come under the umbrella of the Bond Provider and we as individuals are completely at their mercy. Obviously it is of no concern to them as they continue to apply crippling charges and the longer this liquidation goes on the better it is for them financially.
My question which perhaps could be put to the JL's is :-
"Can all Bond Providers in IOM not be challenged by the JL's on this to deal equitably with all Bondholders caught up in the KS&F liquidation who would by now (as would I in January 2015) have been able to surrender their bonds without penalty and without further management charges?" I would happily sign over my interest to the Bond Company in lieu of escaping from these horrendous charges and finally be rid of these leeches.

Obviously from the replies to my original question some Bond Providers are taking a different approach regarding KS&F and this seems really discriminatory against those of us who cannot surrender their bonds. Also does anyone have any idea whether the IOM Financial Ombudsman would be interested in this state of affairs and is there any value in all Bondholders joining forces to make ONE strong voice against all the IOM Bond Companies so that they are at least singing off the same song sheet? My husband and I are surely not the only ones who find ourselves in this disastrous predicament.

I have complained repeatedly to no avail, it falls on deaf ears and every quarter I see my deposit reduced yet again for doing absolutely nothing!! The FA has stopped their charges, big deal as they are now only able to charge on the relatively small amount still left in the Bond. Alas as there is no more money in it for them they have also stopped communicating with me. In other words they have washed their hands of our nightmare even though it was their recommendation which took us down the bank path in the 1st place.
Any further comments, thoughts, assistance would be really, really appreciated.
Thank you all once again for your excellent work.


Thanks

  • chb
  • 10/10/08 15/10/09
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  • Wed, 01/07/2015 - 14:53

Thank you Knife Edge. Appreciate your support and ongoing efforts.


No court date yet

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 09/07/2015 - 06:07

Hi

I've heard back from Mike Simpson, so I'm posting that here, although I'm afraid it's inconclusive news.

There is still no court date set for our application(s). "Issues" (there is no mention of what they might be) have arisen in relation to the Early Payment Schemes, which as we know were implemented in haste.

MS has confirmed that he understands the position that the bondholders are in and has committed to communicating a timeline as soon as he can. I will follow up in a few weeks.

All the best
K E


KE - re Court Date

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 10/07/2015 - 09:26

Just want to say thanks for the update. Most appreciated as I have asked the question twice now of Mr Simpson - to no avail.

Gordon 45


Contractual interest

  • chb
  • 10/10/08 15/10/09
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  • Tue, 30/06/2015 - 13:02

Dear Gordon 45 / Anrigaut,

We'd like to add our thanks to those of others on the site for your regular postings and insights. Thanks too for the great work by so many others over these 7 years. It's turned out better than we dared hope in the early days.

May we ask another question of you please?

In the last para of Gordon 45's note on the JLs review, there is a suggestion that the JLs will be approached for an update on the possible distribution of the (c.£3.5m) contractual interest. Was a reply ever received from them? We're unclear as to whether the 'delay' is due to (i) an assessment by the JLs regarding the amount of funds they have to cover such a distribution or (ii) the legitimacy of such a distribution under IoM laws or (iii) some other reason. Our Bondholding company indicated that it was the question of legitimacy under IoM law (and as such they imply that there is a possibility that it may not be allowed). Maybe you (or one of the CoI) could clarify please?

Like cypheath, we're continuing to pay exorbitant management fees for our Bond and have substantial exit fees too, neither of which the Bondholding company will budge on. We are sick of spending 'good money after bad' on Management Fees but do not want to forfeit contractual interest if it's coming.

Any insight regarding the likelihood and timing of the contractual interest beyond 5% would be highly appreciated. Thanks and best wishes to all.


To chb - contractual interest

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Tue, 30/06/2015 - 19:35

Hi There,

Like Anrigaut, you have my heartfelt sympathy regarding your bond situation with your bondholder. It is quite disgraceful what Some Bondholders are putting people through.

Anrigaut as far as I can see has answered your query as best we can at this point. JLs still waiting on clarification from IOM Courts. And there is sufficient to pay the 'contractual interest' according to my figures. The next Quarterly update due at end of June - probably issued mid/late July should confirm that. Hopefully that update or the '6 monthly' report due at 9.7.2015 (probably issued around mid/late August) will supply an update on the current situation.

If in the meantime the JLs do enlighten any of us we will inform all accordingly. I have re written to the JLs, just the other day, and asked again if there has been any movement re the IOM Court situation amongst other things like the loans etc.

Sorry there is nothing of substance to let people know about,

Yours,

Gordon 45


re contractual interest

  • anrigaut
  • 19/10/08 30/10/09
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  • Tue, 30/06/2015 - 17:45

Hi chb,

I have received no direct reply - and as far as I know neither has Gordon. But I think the answer to your question is closest to "(iii) some other reason"!

Before any interest is distributed, the JLs have to apply to the Manx Court for their directions as to the precise rules to be applied. I understand they did this some while ago, but are - as far as I know - still awaiting a response. I don't think the principle of paying the contractual (deferred) interest beyond the 5% cap - and then further interest for post-Oct 2008 - is in serious doubt. But the legal procedure has to be followed - and as ever in the IOM, wheels grind slowly!

Among the details to be agreed with the Court is the cut-off date for claiming in the liquidation, which then has to be published. Only after that date has passed can any interest be paid. This delay is really frustrating to us all as it appears enough money is now available to pay the deferred interest, but must be particularly galling to you and to other bondholders in a similar situation - you have my deepest sympathy. I'll see whether there's any way pressure can be brought to speed up the process.

Anrigaut


Thanks

  • chb
  • 10/10/08 15/10/09
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  • Wed, 01/07/2015 - 14:55

Anrigaut and Gordon; thanks a lot. We'll continue to follow your postings and appreciate your help


Gratitude

  • Wombat761
  • 30/01/09 20/03/15
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  • Tue, 02/06/2015 - 02:40

Hi Gordon:
Thanks again for continuing to report. You have certainly helped me keep track of the JL's goings on and it is reassuring to know that you continue to put in so much effort on everyones behalf.

I can't understand why the JL's claim it is too much effort to post a more regular newsletter, as surely they should have made the necessary applications to MANX High Court (or whatever it calls itself) for the back Interest Payment situation to be clarified ny now [They've had since January 2013!!] .

Even a "making best efforts" note would be better than nothing.
Regards and best wishes.
Wombat761


When will it all end for us all????

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
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  • Mon, 04/05/2015 - 11:49

Firstly I would like to say a big thank you to Gordon, Anrigaut and everyone who has worked so long and tirelessly to achieve where we are today. To have achieved 100% return of our money after so many years is marvellous and of course to also eventually have a small amount of interest added would be great but to us it is a millstone around our necks.
My husband and I along with all the other Bondholders caught up in this debacle are now left in a terrible position as we are contractually compelled to continue paying over £600 per quarter each in Management fees to Old Mutual International until the Liquidation ends.
Reading all the latest comments it would seem highly likely that it is not going to end any time soon and indeed Liquidation may seemingly go on for many, many more years effectively costing us around £2500.00 each per year in fees for what will be a negligible amount of interest .
We only had £20,000 each in KS&F held within our Bonds which we could have surrendered without penalty in January 2015 had KS&F been done and dusted.
Due to this protracted process for which the JL's are still being well paid (although they are unable to give us their charges from January 2015!) we unfortunately still have £95 (give or take a few pence either way) presumably interest allocated to our Bonds from KS&F and therefore Old Mutual have retained approximately £13000.00 in each Bond which they will continue to milk from us until this KS&F debacle finally ends.
My question to you all depositors and Bondholders alike, is this a fair and equitable position to be placed in when we have no idea how many years this situation will continue and effectively we could well end up paying more out in fees than we initially put into or have eventually got back (£20K each at the moment) from KS&F?
In effect every quarters fees Old Mutual take from us will further erode that £20,000.00 each which we foolishly put into KS&F and apparently there is nothing we can do about it.
Are there any other Bondholders in our same position, if so is there any way that we can unite to bring pressure to bear against these Institutions?
Can we reclaim these horrendous charges from anywhere else so that once finished we like everyone else has received 100% return of their deposits otherwise the JL's have not in our opinion achieved the results for which they have been applauded and not everyone will have received ALL THEIR MONEY BACK!
Perhaps there is someone on the COI who would be prepared to take up the gauntlet and put the relevant question to the JL's as I am sure we are not unique in our unfortunate position.
All comments and suggestions gratefully received as this unjust and unfair Bank failure and subsequent liquidation rumbles slowly on affecting so many peoples' lives in so many different and horrible ways. For us the nightmare continues ad infinitum. Many thanks if you have taken the time to read this and apologies for its length and wordiness but I don't know how else to express it


Fees

  • calpespain
  • 12/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Sun, 10/05/2015 - 05:39

I am sorry, like others, that you seem to be in a precarious position with Old Mutual. I am with Royal Skandia who has had a name change to Old Mutual. I am able to confirm that since the beginning of the liquidation I negotiated that no further fees would be payable by me to them. They did agree and after 12 months or so, the fees began to reappear on my statements. I wrote to them and they refunded the fees and since have not charged me.

I feel you may have to apply to their better nature and find a sympathetic and understanding ear to get this resolved. You should not give up on this and persuade them to refund all of your fees whilst this has been in progress. All the very best. Calpespain.


Continuing Management Charges

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
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  • Mon, 11/05/2015 - 13:06

Thank you to everyone who has taken the trouble to reply to me, it is very, very much appreciated and given me a little bit of renewed hope.
Calpespain, our Bonds also started life with Royal Skandia who have indeed had a name change to Old Mutual. They did grant a pro rata reduction in Management Fees for the gradual return of the outstanding £9000 from our original deposit of £20000 in KS&F. (Initial payments of £1K and £10K were made quite early on in the liquidation process).
Unfortunately, that pro rata reduction represented a very small proportion of the total Bonds and made very little difference to the Charges which with the return of 100% have now fully resumed.
Until we can close the Bonds we are tied into their Management Charges for the whole amount deposited in those Bonds and it seems we are being held to them for the duration of the KS&F Liquidation, hence retention of around £12000 Cash in each Bond.
Your kind and informative reply have at least given me hope that if others have been able to close Bonds then this should be available to us too and I will pursue this avenue further. Without full details of cases setting this precedent I think it will be difficult to cite examples and to prove it but I will certainly persevere.
Many thanks again everyone and any other input on this nightmare would be very gratefully received.
Cypheath


Bondholders & fees

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Thu, 07/05/2015 - 10:29

Hi cypheath

Anrigaut alerted me to your post; I'm a member of the COI, and thought I should respond.

First of all, I was aware of the general circumstances you describe, in that fees were continuing to be charged, although I wasn't aware of the fact that amounts are apparently being held back on account of fees to be incurred. Both facts represent an inequitable state of affairs, and you have my deepest sympathy.

As others have suggested, the best way to take this up would, in the first instance, to approach the bondholder, Old Mutual, and to appeal to their better judgement, both for future fees and fees that have been paid to date. Being able to cite other examples where the bondholder has waived their fees, as have been mentioned in this thread, should only strengthen that argument. Hopefully that could lead to a quick resolution for you.

If there are other bondholders on the site, you could well adopt a collective approach on that, to compare and contrast notes and responses from various companies (assuming there are others in the same boat, which I'm guessing there must be).

The JLs are unlikely to have visibility of whether fees are being charged by bondholders, as they pay "gross", as far as I know, and they are also unlikely to be able to weigh in on the subject in any meaningful way. Nevertheless, I will canvas their views on this on your behalf.

Best wishes

K E


Bond holder fees

  • cottesmore
  • 21/10/08 16/07/12
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  • Sat, 09/05/2015 - 09:18

I'm with Friends Provident. All my fees were cancelled at the start of this nightmare. You should get on the phone and tell them you want the charges to cease and have a refund of all charges.


To cypheath

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Mon, 04/05/2015 - 13:11

Dear cypheath,

Firstly, so sorry to hear of your situation with many bondholders to varying degrees being caught up with paying fees whilst this Liquidation languishes on.

Two other bondholders whom I am in regular contact did the following -

  1. One with high ongoing management fees plus a £10,000 retainer held back by the bond holding company wrote to the MD of the Company - waste of time. They then wrote directly to the Group CEO and also the Chairman. It was replied to and 'handed down' to the MD of the Bondholding Company to handle. This changed the MD's approach, the £10k was released and the Bond put 'off line' in order that no further fees were involved. So they have been getting dividends back with no costs involved.

  2. The other person with a different bond holding company wrote the that company's MD and quarterly management fees were stopped until dividends began and they increased as cash came back into the fund. Unfortunately they failed to stop the high quarterly fees that in effect repaid their IFA's commission on the bond and the Company reclaiming their initial investment into the bond. But that bondholder has now been given the opportunity to close the bond down - meaning they will not get any more from the Liquidation, but that ensures all fees stop. What they have to remember like 'darrmont' has said is to look into any tax inplications by doing this.

Hope the above helps you.

Gordon 45


Bonds

  • darrmont
  • 15/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Mon, 04/05/2015 - 12:09

Hi there, I am not sure about Old Mutual but I know a client of ours was in a Prudential Offshore bond in the same situation and Prudential allowed him to get the distributions paid directly to him so that he would not be afflicted with ongoing fees on a bond he no longer needed. I would have thought Old Mutual could do something similar if you ask them to close the bond and assign the assets to you directly. I am not sure about any tax implications or your personal situation but that should be available as an option to you.


Bonds and how to end them while KS&F remains in liquidation.

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
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  • Mon, 04/05/2015 - 13:04

Many thanks darrmont for your speedy and encouraging reply. You have given me some hope that Old Mutual may see fit to be more accommodating if they know Prudential have already resolved this issue for one of their Bondholders. As you can imagine we are not even bothered about any further distributions from KS& F as they will be so small as compared to the continuing crippling charges of over £600 for each of us every 3 months.


Thank you

  • sunny1
  • 16/10/08 30/05/14
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  • Fri, 24/04/2015 - 13:32

Thank you Gordon, yet again.
It seems incredible that we may perhaps look forward to an interest payment, as well as having had our 100% back. Your report, as always, is very much appreciated.
Sunny1


Thank you Gordon

  • fight theft
  • 10/10/08 28/05/13
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  • Thu, 23/04/2015 - 18:54

You have been our God-Send. God bless you too and a huge thanks for all your wonderfully accurate Accounting "Thoughts" and Estimates. You have kept us all sane when we were lost, always gave us hope and reassurance, I will be so pleased for all of us to go over our 100% target - Justice for all finally.


To fight theft

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Fri, 24/04/2015 - 10:08

Fight theft,

I can only thank you for your very kind words. When I began to do my checks way back, it was to help keep me sane, keep me busy and to just try and see if myself and my family had any kind of future to look forward to or not. And when I plucked up the courage I began to post my info hoping it might help some of the others who were in this same horrendous situation and give them hope also.

But I am only one of many people who have all worked hard to do their bit to help all of us, and over these past few years Anrigaut has been a power house and God send to all of us along with our colleagues on the COI.

Let's hope our JLs can get everything under their control finalised and just hope somehow that the PG can be finalised or sold off asap.

Cheers,

Gordon 45


Excellent summary

  • sambururob
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Tue, 21/04/2015 - 21:56

Excellent summary Gordon.
Thank you so much as ever.
Have a good day,
Rob and Wendy