BOND HOLDERS STITCHED UP BY SOA

  • mr lynton
  • 27/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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Posted: Sun, 01/02/2009 - 13:10

As the pleasure of voting for the potential SOA lies with the life companies on our behalf ( even though it is our hard earned cash at stake) - would it not be reasonable for these same companies to pay out bond holders in full if they accept the SOA. This would leave themselves to wait 6 years to get their funds back (65% ?) but seems a small price to pay for the potential decimation of their business if depositors don't recover 100% of their funds.

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Skandia Bondholders

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 14:09

Skandia's website now gives dtails of SOA, EPS, etc.

May be worth a read even if you are not with Skandia as I'm sure all the ins. cos will have discussed and come up with the same!!!!

www.royalskandia,com


Skandia Bondholderss

  • Gordon 45
  • 22/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Wed, 04/02/2009 - 19:51

Dear Cypheath,

Entirely grsateful to you for information that I failed to get elsewhere as an AXA Bondholder.

Gordon 45


axa bond holders

  • barbarajee
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 11:48

my new ifa has informed me that there is a letter on its way from axa to us regarding information about the early payments scheme to bond holders.


Latest on payback from Skandia!

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 10:42

You are very welcome Gordon 45, maybe this will be of interest to you and others.

My email

I have seen the latest updates on the Skandia website so am aware of the proposed Scheme of Arrangement and of the EPS.
As I do not understand the SoA Lump Sums v %'s could you please answer the following questions in addition to my queries over EPS:-

  1. When will the £1000 EPS arrive in my cash account?
  2. Will Skandia be elligible to apply for the £10,000 EPS if this is passed by Tynwald?
  3. Under the SoA how much of my £20,000 will I get back?
  4. How long will it take to get this back?
  5. If the DCS is triggered how much of the one off payment to Skandia will I receive?
  6. What if anything has/is Skandia doing to recover the 63 million pounds of 600 investors money?

Dear XXX

Thank you for your e-mail

  1.              The payment should be applied to your bond shortly, as you can appreciate we have 300 clients who were invested in KSF and it would be impossible to make all the payments immediately.
    
  2.              We understand that our bondholders will be entitled to the £10,000.00 proposed by Treasury and which will be discussed at the next sitting of the Isle of Man Government.
    
  3.              Under the proposed SOA you should receive 65% of your £20,000.00.  The percentage could increase if any further assets were retrieved after the SOA was implemented.
    
  4.              Below is the proposed timetable
    

Total returned

3 months after scheme takes effect 12.5% of KSFIOM investment returned 12.5%

12 months after scheme takes effect A further 7.5% of KSFIOM investment returned 20%

24 months after scheme takes effect A further 15% of KSFIOM investment returned 35%

24 months+ after scheme takes effect A further 30% of KSFIOM investment returned 65%

A provisional timetable has been laid out stating that all legal issues could be resolved by the end of February, with the court petitioned in March. This would allow a scheme meeting to be called in April and held in May, with the scheme consequently taking effect late May / early June and payments commencing in July.

  1.    If the DCS was triggered you would get back the same amount but, it would take longer to make the payments and there would be no possibility of getting any further payments should any additional assets be retrieved.
    
  2.    Royal Skandia supported the application for the adjournment but made it clear via its legal representative in Court that this did not necessarily imply our agreement to all the proposed terms of such a scheme. In particular we made it clear that we intended to be proactive in shaping the terms of the proposed Scheme of Arrangement and would lobby the Isle of Man Government vigorously to ensure that the proposed payment schedule would be enhanced so that a greater amount would be payable within the specified two-year timetable.
    

I hope this clarifies the situation for you. Please do keep checking our website, www.royalskandia.com, for updates and if you have any queries call me on the number given below.

Regards,

XXXXXXX

Customer Helpdesk

3 Observations on this reply.

  1. Answer to Q1 says 300 investors, sure I've read 600 more than once!
  2. Answer to Q6 no mention of lobbying IOMG for 100% return in quicker time scale!
  3. How am I going to get 65% return in 2yrs when it states 35% in 24 months the rest 24 months+?????

Also can anybody tell me what the 3 payments £8K, £6K & £6K were about on the SoA attached to Lovett's affidavit?

Thanks


DCS prevents retrieivng more than 65%??

  • chd
  • 13/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 11:49

My parents are not bondholders but have a lot of cash at risk. I was shocked to read the following about DCS in your reply from Skandia:

If the DCS was triggered you would get back the same amount but, it would take longer to make the payments and there would be no possibility of getting any further payments should any additional assets be retrieved.

So where will the extra funds go that are retrieved in surplus of 65%? This doesn't make sense. Is this another scheme that has been devised between IOM and the insurance companies Propaganda for SoA??


65% only?

  • Blue
  • 30/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 11:59

We, too, were really, really surprised and dismayed to read the Skandia comment.
We are contacting them for clarification!


Re:65% only

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 13:15

I have passed a copy of the reply received from the life company to John Spellman at the IoM treasury as my understanding of the DCS differs significantly from the one put forward here. I have asked him to look through the entire email and to check it for factual errors and to take a specific look at the claims around the DCS.

I will post whatever reply I receive as soon as I have it.


65% Speedy Reply

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 13:53

John Spellman has kindly got back to me very quickly regarding the email from the life company. Please see this posting for full details.

http://chat.ksfiomdepositors.org/forum-topic/bond-holders-and-65-misinfo...


Apologies for spreading misinformation

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 15:50

Sorry everyone for posting misinformation but as usual Diver's speedy action has hopefully cleared things up. Thank you Diver for everything and good luck for your move.

I'm still no further forward to understanding what the 3 lump sums of £8K, (3mths) £6K (12 mths) and £6K (24 mths) under heading for Ins Cos on affidavit was. Is it supposed to be the £20K per Ins Co under the DCS?

Have also attached another response from Skandia to an email of mine dated 16 January again just for information as to what they are doing if anything.

Dear XXXXX

As affidavits were made to the IoM Courts yesterday perhaps you can tell me more about what the proposals are for us to recover this money. In the first instance, when for instance (if I am elligible) the £1000 will be arriving in my Cash Account?

I should be most grateful to have any information as to what Royal Skandia are doing to recover the millions deposited in KSF (IoM) by Royal Skandia clients.

Yours sincerely,

Dear XXX

Royal Skandia are expecting to be able to begin crediting bond holder accounts next week. However due to the amount of accounts which need to be updated it may be the end of next week before your bond is credited with the money. When it is received it will be placed on the cash account of your bond and the balance of your holding in Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander will be reduced by £1000.00. I must stress that this is not the full extent of funds which are expected to be returned to you.

Royal Skandia has been pro-active in its attempts to recover our clients funds. A representative of Royal Skandia attends, with a legal adviser, all creditor meetings and court cases connected to the liquidation. In addition Royal Skandia has both separately and in conjunction with the Manx Insurance Association (the Manx Life Companies trade association) approached both the Isle of Man government and the liquidator to press for fair and equitable treatment of everyone effected by the liquidation.

We have recently updated our website www.royalskandia.com with the latest information following the court hearing on 29.01.08. This is the very latest information we have on the situation.

If you have any further queries please contact me.

Yours sincerely
XXXXXXXXX


Cypheath - Royal Skandia payback

  • Blue
  • 30/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 11:37

It was very helpful to read your information this morning. We were just about to write to RS asking for the same information.
I am still not quite clear whether it would be £10,000 per bond holder or per account. Do you know?


Research

  • Tricky Dicky
  • 24/10/08 30/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 11:57

As you may or may not know I am Group Manager, albeit temporary until a bondholder puts his/her head above the parapet to take over from me.
However, perhaps some of you could do some research, I am presently trying to obtain the necessary web links from an IOM advocate, into:
1. ACISCS (Authorised Collective Investment Schemes Compensation Scheme) which I believe operates on IOM
2. IOM Life Assurance (Compensation for Policyholders) Regulations 1991

Good Hunting
Tricky


ACISCS- Statutory Document No 373/08

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:01

In operation from 1/8/2008

Para 9(i) does say have 6 months to submit "after investor became aware or ought reasonably to have become aware" of failure so if we are eligible to claim under this other "unfunded scheme" we need to keep that date in mind.
Very heavy going though unless you're used to reading that sort of stuff, can't say whether it applies or doesn't. Help from anyone out thre who can get their head around it PLEASE!


ACISCS- Statutory Document No 373/08

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:20

This wouldn't be a specialist subject of mine if I was appearing on Mastermind, but I think that there are only a limited number of CIS's that are authorised in the Isle of Man - see link below

http://www.fsc.gov.im/licence/search.aspx?id=2&searchtext=&selection=Aut...

When you invest in an Insurance Bond (a fixed deposit can be called a bond, which is different) then you have a contractually arrangement with the Insurer. The Insurer can invest in a number of Collective Investment schemes (CIS's) or you can (could) 'invest' cash using for example KSFIOM.

A bank deposit (eg KSF) is not an Authorised Scheme, therefore the ACSIS doesn't apply.

I am not a lawyer though, and you should take professional advice on this matter.

I hope that this helps.


@manx-person

  • Hampnew
  • 22/01/09 31/05/09
  • not prepared to answer
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 12:13

I have been reading your comments with interest, it appeared to me that you were possibly a lawyer. You quite obviously have some form of legal training. Legal executive maybe? Can you tell me what so that I can decide how much emphasis to place on your advice as I might need to use it in my decision making.

That would help.


@Hampnew

  • manx-person
  • 17/10/08 31/05/09
  • not a depositor
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 12:29

I haven't given an advice - only made comments on a web forum.
I would suggest to you in any case that free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it... nothing.

I don't know anything about you situation. If you would like some 'advice' then I would suggest that you provide details of your particular situation, and then I and perhaps other people can make comment.

If you would like "advice" then I would suggest it would be best to engage someone to provide such advice.


@manx-person

  • Hampnew
  • 22/01/09 31/05/09
  • not prepared to answer
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  • Thu, 05/02/2009 - 12:37

Ok thank you, agreed. Do you engage? If you do, I will email you once I have quantified my situation. Might need some assistance.


ACISCS

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 12:26

I'm sure you'll have already gone through this Tricky, makes for very tricky reading!

Isle of Man’s Authorised Collective Investment Schemes’ Compensation Scheme ("ACISCS")

The Isle of Man also has a scheme to compensate investors in authorised collective investment schemes. A summary of the cover provided by the ACISCS is as follows:

The ACISCS partially compensates you if an authorised collective investment scheme in which you have invested fails to pay you when money is due to you. Compensation may be due to you if a manager or trustee of an authorised collective investment scheme fails to repay you when required by the terms of the scheme.
Compensation payable is as follows : 100% of the first £ 30,000 90% of the next £ 20,000 with a MAXIMUM Compensation of £48,000.
Compensation is paid out of levies collected from other authorised scheme managers and trustees ("authorised persons") in the Isle of Man. There is no "standing fund" of compensation (i.e. money is not collected in advance).
All authorised persons in the Isle of Man are members of the ACISCS. A list of these is on the FSC’s website.
The legislation for the Isle of Man’s authorised collective investment schemes’ compensation scheme can be found on the FSC’s website.


ACISCS

  • Tricky Dicky
  • 24/10/08 30/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:07

To be honest I have not read it, not being a bondholder, it does not affect any decisions I will need to make in the future. I found the intial information and posted it here as it may have been of usefulness to you guys.
I'm not sure if it runs alongside the DCS or if it becomes invalid if a SoA is set up - I put this information here as another possible course of action for bondholders
Would it mean you have a greater return than purely under a DCS or SoA?
Do you fancy becoming Group Manager for 'Bonds'?


Bondholders stitched up?

  • gazfuk
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Sun, 01/02/2009 - 16:55

I don't get your reasoning here. Surely bondholders do better under SoA than DCS...they qualify for next to nothing under DCS, don't they?


Bond Holders Stitched Up??

  • david buglass
  • 16/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 11:41

Yes we get SFA under DCS but our problem is that we do not know if we will be treated equally with retail depositors come SOA or even liquidation.I have not been able to get an answer to this to date and its beginning to wear thin after all this time.
What makes matters worse is we were all conned by the corporate tag and were ignorant to the fact.
We need an answer to this so we know what course to take if it comes down to a vote - obviously DCS is a non starter for our group but if anyone can shed some light on this matter I would be obliged.


The problem for bondholders

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 12:19

The problem for bondholders is not for the higher depositors, but rather for those sub about 80K who will not get the advantage of DCS top up, those above the magical 80K will be pretty much in the same boat as the rest of us, relying on a pro-rata distribution, at present thought to be around 60-65/100.


DCS Top Up for Bondholders

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:05

Sorry Capt, for the less astute among us can you please explain your posting especially your ref to 80K. I'm in for 20K so do I get nought as well?


No, not like that - remember

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 14:28

No, not like that - remember the way DCS works for sub 50K "normal depositor" - they have a guarantee for full payment, but you guys may not have.

Take 65% of 80K....around 52K if you had been "normal" then up to 50K you would be guaranteed, but as a bond holder, you lose out, until you are above 80K, when the assumed dividen of 65/100 will start to pay - it's the below 50K'ers who get hard done by, and the around 80K'ers who will be in the same boat as 50K "normal" depositors ( see 50K back)

Altogether a very tatty explanation, perhaps someone else can oblige, it's getting late.

At 20K I you assumed return woulde be about 13 clicks instead of 20 - but I suggest that you also find manx-person's post about bonds first.


DCS Top Up for Bondholders

  • cypheath
  • 01/11/08 30/10/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:07

Sorry dble post, got a weird warning message, never seen before!


The problem for bondholders

  • Blue
  • 30/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Mon, 02/02/2009 - 12:24

We have below £50,000. Does that mean we are in line for zilch?!