BAD IDEA TO USE GRUNDSBERG
I don't think it's a good idea to use Grundsberg to represent us for the following reasons:
- By aligning us to Grundsberg we make our whole case rest on the argument that Kaupthing would not have failed without the actions of the UK government
2.There is clearly a conflict of interest between Kaupthing and us in that both FSC and Kaupthing may have been negligent when they transferred the 550 Million to the UK.
3.If Grundsberg win the case for Kaupthing then we would get our money anyway as Kaupthing then would be able to pay us.
In my opinion we should let Kaupthing get on with their case against the UK government and we should instead concentrate on the 550 Million and the circumstances these were transferred under which may hold the key to a case against FSA, FSC or KSF IOM. We can’t possibly go after FSC and KSF IOM if we use Kaupthings law firm.
I am looking forward to hearing your opinions on this.
legal representation
I enquired as to whether they would represent us and got the following reply. I made it clear that I am not one of the coordinators and that I would post their reply and if any of the Groups wanted to involve them or we were considering a class action then they would be contacted.
From: Richard Beresford [mailto:richardb(?)gmrlaw [dot] com]
Sent: 17 November 2008 13:08
To:
Cc: Anna Vainonen; Carol Martin; Michael Tackley
Subject: Re: KSFI
Dear DSM
Thank you for your email. I understand your frustration and anger. We would be delighted to meet with you to discuss how we might help you and other depositors in your position.
I will ask Anna Vainonen to contact you to arrange a meeting with me and my partners Carol Martin and Michael Tackley.
Kind regards
Richard Beresford
Legal Representation
If we decide not to use Grundsberg then so be it. They may be unable to represent us anyhow.
The question is - do we actually need legal representation at this point ? I think the answere is - perhaps we do and perhaps we do'nt. If things go our way between UK, Iceland and IOM then we may be fine and we may get our money back anyhow. Surely we cannot rely on that. Would any of us trust Mr Darling with their life savings - you must be joking !
After saying that what if things do not go our way, what if we get left out in the cold. I think we need the contingency of a plan B and plan B must be the legal route. Yes - very expensive but I think we must prepare for it. Is there another plan B out there ? We need to prepare for this now. We need a fighting fund now.
I agree - a fighting plan
I agree - a fighting plan now. I don't trust that matters between the UK and Iceland will be resolved so quickly and even if they are, they might very well exclude the Isle of Man depositors. We'd then have to start from scratch and retain legal help anyway. I believe that we need to bring a lawyer in right now, there isn't a moment to lose.
If in the meantime, there is a resolution to our plight, so be it - we drop whatever our case is. But after listening to Alistair Darling (what an inappropriate name), I'm very sceptical that we won't continue to be the poor orphans in this situation.
Money is an issue because most of us do not have access to pay the lawyer to help us access it. A Catch 22 situation.
Grundsberg and Litigation
I would agree that throwing in our lot with someone litigating against the UK probably isn't a good idea because it'd make a statement that we side with Kaupthing/Iceland - and it's those guys who had the 'guarantees' in place and as yet have not been forthcoming - so we have some possible recourse there.
I also agree that it's intelligent to consider the possibilities and consequences of future legal action now and to keep up the spotlight on the issues so that those who created the mess can't walk away from us.
The optimal 'non-legal' solution here must be instigated by the IOM since, as I see it, the IOM is totally stuffed if they don't protect their depositors in this situation. They don't want to have to find £150m due to the stress it'll place on their economy - after which their banking sector may have been crushed anyway. It's a big deal for them and I think they'll be sweating it out for a deal between UK, Iceland and IOM.
Summary : As expat reccommends - hang fire right now but only until it becomes clear that we're going to be isolated. Somehow I feel that there's so much money (£800m +) at stake here that many who have lost out cannot walk away. Therefore they might as well scrap it out for as long as it takes - and that's bad news for the culprits. Have faith.
its a very pertinent point,
its a very pertinent point, jus what does action achibve? Who is it agianst ad what actual proof exists? If another route to get a solution is on ooffer and any form of litifgation jepordises that, is it a good idea. Have you officially been told that we have reached the end game?
My own humble opinion is that it is premature. When I know that there is and end ganme and we have lost I will be the frst to say okay lets litigate, but hat is not the position as it stands.
Please wait for some announcements this week before concluding even a line of thinking, let alone action. I have one hell of a lot to lose here, so I am hardly likely to want knee jerk reactions guys! Maybe thats why somebody is having a holiday!
Holiday
Now that I can see (from another thread) that it is me who you refer to above as "having a holiday", I think I should clarify. I posted elsewhere that I intended to curtail for at least the remainder of this week my strenuous activities during the past 10 days or more in respect of finding legal representation in IOM and/or advice in London. This was because I have pressing family issues and other personal issues to attend to and also because I have not been able to do my paid work. Also, because several if the core group, including you, keep discouraging members from pursuing legal avenues, the legal repn execrcise is a very frustrating one.
Whatever my reasons, it is most certainly not in the expectation that anything extraordinary is about to come out of the IOM government - indeed having heard the TSC yesterday, I wonder what it is that the IOM could have been negotiating about with the UK for the past 2 weeks.
I actually agree with you expat - Too early for legal action
I agree, it is too early to pursue legal action. This is only a last resort if no political solution has been found before 27th of November. My main point was it is not advisable to use Kaupthings law firm if it comes to this. In the meantime I would suggest we each do a bit of research on which firm to use i.e. preparing for the worst while hoping for the best
further to bad idea to use Grundberg
I agree with this. Kaupthing's argument with UK and ours are two separate issues.
Darling's use of the word 'chose' yesterday, how cursorily he thinks he can brush the matter aside, incensed me. There has got to be more to it than this. I vote we list the guys - MPs and other spokespeople, media etc - apparently supporting us, and before the semantics of this innocuous word 'chose' go cold, contact them afresh and try to persuade them to pursue it. Of course, this would be more effectively done through the London and Isle of Man teams.
The pivotal issue for us has got to be in the return of the 550 million. As said above, FSA, FSC, KSFIOM bound up in this.
may I refer you to DMXs
may I refer you to DMXs commenst on this subject yesterday please. Also various threads by cold-dose and others.
Legal representation
I cannot find DMX's comments but regardless I have instructed my lawyers today. Their first action will be to make contact with the Provisional Liquidator and try to ascertain where he stands on a number of matters including: KSF IOM balance sheet position; where we stand on actions to repatriate deposits in UK and Iceland; actions planned to understand in detail (when, why etc.) the transactions involving funds being deposited in UK and Iceland.
I am prepared to believe that there are behind the scenes discussions between all three Governments but I have no plans to wait until 27th November and find out that we are on our own. The problem with legal action is deciding who to pursue and on what grounds. I want my lawyers to do a lot more probing for evidence so that we can take that decision - or better still make sure that the Liquidator takes action.
To that end we may need to consider whether to have the current Provisional Liquidator replaced. I will reserve judgement while my lawyers converse with him but I am concerned that a local representative may have too cosy a relationship with the FSC or the Directors of the IOM bank, all of whom might end up in our firing line.
If you replace the current
If you replace the current Prov Liquidator then all the work his team are currently doing will have to be done again by someone else at our expense ultimately as it will reduce the pay out. KSF offices here are stuffed full of Price Waterhouse staff currently and at up to £150 per hour per man is costing us all cash
Legal cases will only delay the pay out while fat lawyers get fatter at our expense
Bring on liquidation as cash already recovered plus sale of loan book will get us back maybe 35pence in the pound straight away, then proceeds from KSF UK (someone has quoted Ernst and Young Estimate of 50p per pound) would recover another £275 million and give us another maybe 30 pence given time so ultimately we could get two thirds of our cash back and if you had under 50K deposited the IOM scheme will top up your losses to a max of your deposits
And remember interest stopped on 8th October so delaying payout costs us further losses
What I would be interested in
What I would be interested in knowing are any potential lawsuits/legal actions that may be taken on part of the depositors against who or whomever, going to keep us from getting any distributions at all for possibly some years to come?
Right now there is about 250 million GBP I have read about that could be paid out relatively soon. Will instigating what may be entirely fruitless claims (especially against the UK government) just put us all into a worse predicament than where we are now?