Actions taken or being taken

  • Anonymous
  • unspecified
  • Offline
Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 04:35

If you are contacting someone, be it media or other, and you feel it might benefit others on the site, please give the details.

0
Your rating: None

Comment viewing options
Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Accomodation

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 00:02

Don't know if you noticed, I posted an offer we received of free accommodation for expat, from a local IoM resident. I mailed it to him to but don't know if he's on-line regularly.


Guttered I have lived and

  • Ally
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:14

Guttered

I have lived and worked in the Isle of Man for the past 6 years. I am a
qualified accountant and currently work in the Island's fund industry.

I have lost approximately one third of my life savings in KSF

I have been off the island for the past few days but I am now back. I live
and work in Douglas and I am ready and willing to meet anyone on this board
in the Isle of Man and hopefully be of some help to them.

I know expat has become an unofficial spokesperson. If you are in touch with
him please tell him if he wants to meet up I will try and get down to the Sefton hotel for 12:45 to 13:00 tomorrow (Tuesday) or for him to post a message on the forum for me.


Meeting with Expat

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:49

Ally,
I have just spoken to Steve Thomas our spokesman on IOM to pass on your message.
He can't get online at the moment so has asked me to tell you that he would be very pleased to meet with you. He will be at the Sefton Hotel at 1245 tomorrow as you suggested.


OK. Thanks for passing on the

  • Ally
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:51

OK.

Thanks for passing on the message.

I will be there tomorrow


Need to decide.....

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:04

We need to decide who our best hope is for the return of our deposits as soon as possible as that is who we need to concentrate our attention on. Personally I don't for a second believe that the IoM government is the right way to go as they don't have the finance or international clout to get anything done. However I will naturally go with the majority decision so it may be a good idea for people to start thinking about this for when we do finally meet up as we don't want to waste too much time.


Legal representation

  • rhbbpd
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:54

I agree with Codhelpus. We need legal representation. Maybe easier said than done. Apart from the cost there are several things to possibly bear in mind. I live in Jersey. Although I know nothing about law I do know that Jersey and Guernsey have their own laws, substantially different to the UK.. I suspect the Isle of Man does too. If we were to go down a legal route - we would first need to know to where and to whom would we be turning. As I see it there are 3 possibilities. Iceland, the UK or the Isle of Man - all 3 of which have different laws and legal systems. I wonder if there is anyone in our 'group' who is involved in the legal profession - (business law? or is that too too much to hope for?) or anyone with any relatives who may be able to give us some pointers? I am prepared to join in any group going to the Isle of Man - but would need 48 hours notice.


Legal claims

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:10

I am involved in the legal profession. You're absolutely right, as far as we can tell at the moment, there are potentially three different claims - in order of simplicity:

(1) in IOM, as a depositor (we are just unsecured creditors in the insolvency, subject to the £50K compensation scheme (for what that is worth);

(2) in Iceland, either under the parent guarantee or under the intercompany loan that someone mentioned the deposit funds had been lent to Kaupthing (this would ultimately be a claim on the Icelandic government as the new owners of Kaupthing hf and how any recovery would be funded is another debate); and

(3) in the UK under the intercompany loan under which some people are saying 60% of KSFIOM funds were lent to KSF UK (which may or may not benefit from a UK state guarantee of the liabilities of KSFUK following their bailout).

You can see that this is potentially complicated enough, and three separate proceedings in three separate courts would be a procedural nightmare (of course, it can be and has been done). There will be other factors to be considered in any court case, as well, that are not in the necessarily simplistic summary above.

That's why my view is that the liquidator is the best person to start legal proceedings - for instance, when BCCI went under, the vast majority of the (numerous) proceedings were brought by the liquidators (at great expense that ate up nearly all of the recoveries they made). We should keep pressing hard on the other avenues and keep our legal powder dry to keep the liquidator on his toes.

I understand the frustration, believe me I do. We all want answers to questions and think that the person who will have a good chance at answering them is a lawyer. They may well be, but the man with the real, hard, information (ie assets vs liabilities) is the liquidator.


Knife Edge, I agree

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 23:00

with your assessment that the legal claims are many and difficult.

The commercial picture in the IoM is, by contrast, quite clear: most IoM banks "trade" on the reputation of their owners or affiliates, often without having a legal guarantee from them. I posted the following earlier today (unfortunately on a part of the site which is a backwater).

Alliance and Leicester (IOM) (using the trade name "Alliance and Leicester International") markets itself at:

http://www.alil.co.im/

Click on the Peace of Mind link and you see no word of a guarantee from Santander or Alliance and Leicester (UK). The casual reader might think from the use of both logos that there is a dual guarantee both from Santander and from A&L (UK), but the letter speaks of neither, so presumably there is neither.

There is no statement as to whether there is any legal link with A&L (UK) (presumably there is none), just the use of the A&L logo and brand so that savers will have "peace of mind". Presumably funds raised by A&L (IOM) will be lent on to A&L (UK) for use in Britain.

This is how a Spanish bank (with a good reputation) markets itself to savers, using the trusted Santander logo and brand and the trusted (in Britain) Alliance and Leicester logo and brand.

These IOM banks are using European brand names to attract savers (sometimes with the support of parent company guarantees, sometimes not). The governments of the European parent companies know this and the funds raised in the IOM are lent on to the European group for use in Europe.

It is unfair for the British and other European governments to treat those who save with the IOM subsidiaries, differently from those who save direct with the parent bank. It appears that Santander is getting the benefit of two (non-existent) "guarantees" to A&L (IOM) (one from itself and another from its UK subsidiary) without having to add any liability to its balance sheet.

This "off-balance sheet lending" is one of the things which has made banks' financial statements so suspect. Yet this is not a fly-by-night bank. This is well-regarded bank with a reputation for prudence and sound banking practice.


Interesting comments re A&L

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 23:19

Interesting comments re A&L and UK operation + Santander. See my posting in Your Stories.../Other IOM Banks...

Your remarks make the strategy of the bigger banks sound very deliberate and manipulative.


I totally respect your

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:20

I totally respect your opinion and understand your points Knife Edge, but I cannot see how the appintment of a lawyer would do any harm in taking things forward, I can however see how not doing so, or relying on that of the liquidator could. We are looking for someone to fight for the human story here, not just the nuts an bolts of the machine. Many of us could not even contemplate waiting until the results of a liquidators appointed lawyer had any effect.


Quick payout

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:27

Several people seem to be in an immediate bind financially... whilst imperfect, getting the £50k compensation payment quickly from the Manx Government would help those people with their short-term issues.

The compensation payments don't prevent any other solution that later recovers 100% of the money - it would just have to be repaid out of the eventual return of the deposit (that's already in the scheme).

If the Manx Government were to borrow the money (for later repayment by the other banks), rather than waiting for it to trickle in, then it would have that effect.

This is how the UK scheme works. Bank of England lend the scheme the money, and it is repaid by the other banks over time.

It need not cost the Manx Government any money to do, and would help quite a few folks out, at least until the rest of the money is (hopefully) recovered.


Interim hardship payments

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:31

The other thing that could perhaps be arranged is for the Manx Government to make advances on the compensation scheme (say up to £2k) IMMEDIATELY on production of some suitable evidence that money was in the bank.

That would help out with immediate living expenses that some people will be having trouble with.


Agree that a legal case is a

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:16

Agree that a legal case is a long, slow, expensive route to travel down, and is not our preferred option right now. It may become our only option later, but then it would be the liquidators to do it and not us directly.


Legal issues

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:21

I just wanted to add that other factors to be considered in any court case, as well, that are not in the necessarily simplistic summary I put above, most of which people here will be familiar with - such as the UK authorities' use of legislation that was not intended to be used for that purpose, the UK govt's role in the collapse of Kaupthing generally, the timing of transfers out of KSFIOM, the liability of the directors of KSFIOM, the marketing of KSFIOM as an affiliate of the UK group and statements made in relation to its viability (the list doubtless goes on, those are just what occur to me off the top of my head).

Sorry - ask a lawyer a simple question and you get a complicated answer - but hopefully that illustrates some of the complexities here - leaving aside completely the political dimension, which adds a whole other layer of complexity.


representation

  • Knife Edge
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:24

Sleepless - just saw your post - I think the best person to put our case at this stage is us. Either that or a PR consultant - since it's really about using the media to create the pressure at the moment. A lawyer will start proceedings, which no-one will understand or care about, and then nothing at all will happen for weeks.


I understand what you are

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:30

I understand what you are saying. I think the largest frustration is that we need to know the legalities of the situation in terms of where we stand and making people answer.

I do have a PR contact who may be of assistance if you think this is the way to go?

You're legal background makes you an important candidate to be at the meeting and play and vital role on the appionted board.

clocking off now for some much needed sleep.

goodnight all


KSF web site

  • shafted
  • 10/10/08 12/12/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:54

I am not sure i have read correctly that if you are a non Edge Retail depositor your total funds are safe? Wholesale accounts are not covered in this. Does anyone know what forms a wholesale deposit, in my case i invested my money through a managing actuary company moneys belonging to my SIPP?


UK only

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 22:02

That would have been referring to KSF in the UK. Kaupthing Edge (Internet banking) was transferred to ING. Non-Edge retail accounts, which were postal banking and a very small number, are covered by the UK Treasury for 100%.

Retail here means a standard account for a person or small company.

Wholesale are institutional deposits, like the multi-million deposits that UK councils had.


Urgent Action

  • anilkumar3
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:48

Dear All,
I agree with all those who have shown the will and expressed the necessity to fight on.But I believe we need to act quickly rather than just discuss it indefinately on the forum
We must take a delegation to the UK government about our plight before the markets recover and while people are still interested in bank failures and the consequences.As long as the banking system remains fragile,our protests and representations will be noticed because the govts.understand the need to create confidence amongst bank depositors.We should get a few national newspapers and TV news channels involved in our plight.The time is NOW.
I am not much heartened by the attitude of the IOM government.
I am willing to do whatever is asked of me to prepare and work to wards this end.We must fight for our cause,no one else is going to do it for us.
Thank you


Next steps

  • HOPPER
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:48

Just spoke to Expat by phone, he can't get to a pc right now (a function is on in the hotel) but he asked me to put a message up to say that he agrees with going for a "formal" submission of a list of questions... as suggested by bblair.


HOPPER - please can you ask

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:51

HOPPER - please can you ask EXPAT if he has got enough funds to get through tomorrow and if not can I call his hotel and use their card acquiring facility to ensure some funds for him?


Give Process a Chance...

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:41

Agree with the advice of Hopper below. I"m pulling a list of questions together. Let's get these questions in front of the right people - email or meeting - and give the process a chance. People can email me their questions by clicking on my name. Cheers. Blair


A list of questions

  • Ray
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:51

I sent a list of questions to your "rocketmail" account. Did you receive them?


bblair - am working on it.

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:45

bblair - am working on it. will be back to you first thing in the morning.


Next steps

  • HOPPER
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:33

This forum is getting way too complex. Whilst I can sympathise with those who are upset and want to take the aggressive route (spoof websites, spoof investement documents etc) be prepared that once we go down that route, there is no way back - it will be confrontational from then on. Instead I would give bblair's suggestion a chance first. Let's send to him the questions we all want answered, both for the Gov (Tony Brown, Allan Bell), and for Mike Simpsom at PWC). As one of us with a huge sum at stake, he has offered to pull this list together. We can then submit this list formally, tomorrow, to the right people. There are folks on this forum who can get these delivered and looked at. Brown and Bell will read it. We know already that Mike Simpsom does his best to respond. If we can pull together and get this done, we will give the impression of being organised and effectived.

Let's at least try the organised, professional route first, before attempting to ridicule them into submission. We all want the same thing, 100% of our money back.


I couldn't agree more

  • brokefirefly
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:50

Thank you HOPPER. Although I think that the time for making as much noise as we can may (sadly) come to pass, I don't think we're even nearly there yet. Our biggest problem seems to be a huge lack of information: we are being told very little officially, and are relying on insider knowledge posted on this site. From what those who have experience in these matters have said, the game isn't nearly over yet, and I can only guess that the hearing has been delayed until 24 October for that reason.

Before we antagonise the only people who can help us here, we have to give them a chance to work out a solution: things happened very fast last week and I believe the people on the inside who tell us that the IOM didn't know what was happening.

I still think that, for the moment, we need to make as public as possible the human misery of what has happened here: people have lost their pensions, homes, incomes etc. We need to get the message accross that we're not rich tax dodgers (we should be so lucky), but normal people who have saved hard and believed the advice we were given: that this was a SAFE PLACE TO PUT MONEY WE COULDN'T AFFORD TO LOSE!

I think that this approach is more likely to get us a positive resolution at this stage than trying to discredit the same people we are asking to intervene on our befalf. I know that most of us haven't slept much lately, and we're all worried sick and feel let down to put it mildly, but venting our anger until we know for sure that we've lost our money doesn't seem very constructive.

We need to work on the list of questions for the meetings that other folks are arranging on the IOM and see if we can get some real answers............!


Here here

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:38

Here here


You are closer than...

  • JD
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:28

Insideline who was this comment directed at... ?


see cold-dose comments

  • Stakeknife
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:46

see cold-dose comments below.


ALL. I have requested to NG

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:27

ALL. I have requested to NG we set up a forum regarding legal repersetation ASAP. Please let's focus on this and get some professional help to take us forward

all those discussing a potential meeting can we pleae arrange under the 'meetings' section in 'actions'.

thanks


Isleofmuppets

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:11

Who here has the expertise to set up a website for a private eye style Isle of Man invetsment prospectus. I think this would be a great idea, i havent heard of any other groups trying something similar so its unique, quirky and something i think the press would lap up


Isleofmuppets

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:36

Whilst your idea would ceratinly be something the press may lap up, I would beware of a possible boomerang effect.
Remember our case could also be easily portrayed as rich offshore dodgy depositors.... which if given a Private Eye type spin by the press, may not be very helpfull at the moment.

I would suggest we keep our humour to ourselves for the time being.


Newspapers

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:10

I've been emailing all the mainstream UK newspapers to see if any of them wish to advertise our plight - have been including links to both interviews from tonight to add more weight to our situation.

Would be great if anyone else with a bit of time could do the same, Thanks!


E-mail Interview clips to National Newspapers

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:22

Will do.
Suggest anyone with a few spare minutes does the same, if we flood the news desks they must take notice!


Stupid idea but we could all

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:04

Stupid idea but we could all lobby sporting giant comedy moustaches and shop approns lol


love it!

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:09

love it!


lol

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:07

nice one


isleofmuppets

  • john78
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:51

OK - but I think we build-up the case for IOM banking but it is ONLY launched when the group sees there is little alternative. Maybe there is the glimmer of hope that we all want & we can get ALL our savings back.. who knows - another bank takes over assets of KSF IOM, UK govn does finally get something out of Iceland & decides they have enough to give IOM some of it to bail us out, etc.. who knows - its not over yet !


Funds removal

  • shafted
  • 10/10/08 12/12/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:23

If i get "shafted" i have a good friend with 2.5mil invested in IOM Irish bank who will pull his funds in protest, i hope this is seen by the power that be!


funds removal

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:26

i strongly believe that as a group we could cause billions to move off the island within a matter of days. it is clear that frustration is rising and we WILL act in a coordinated and legal manner that will be devastating for IoM and UK banking if we are not treated with the respect afforded to other taxpayers.


bailout

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:55

honestly i think that the UK govn will release IoM fund or loan them to Iceland so that the bank is taken over later this week and we all get our deposits back.

but we cant afford to wait and find out. I am sure the govn. is monitoring this site and as we have stated - tomorrow night is our deadline for real communication. If we dont get it, then we will attack the IoM as a banking center, and in this environment people I think we can bring it down.


DREAM LAND......Sorry but one

  • chipmunk
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:55

DREAM LAND......Sorry but one has to stand and deliver ....very soon.

Not just idle words...I am now making arrangements to travel to IOM and Lobby..Lobby ..Lobby....I dont believe in standing by and watching whilst Rome burns..


Isle of muppets

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:53

I posted this in general forum but could mix well with your plan!!

The company hasnt been wound up yet and wont be until the 24th (or so they say) this to me seems to be D Day.

My thoughts are that some of us in the mean time could work on an investments prospectus (think thats how its spealt) for the IOM. This could highlight some of the realities that about the IOM that have come to light since this inciden,. E.g. a page about the goverment, showing them in their ex/part time jobs as buiders, shop keepers etc, another maybe about showing various high level officials interests in Kapthing. Can you see where i am running with this. Tongue in cheek private eye sort of this. This could then be released to the press on the day of winding up. Give them a few tasy morsels.

What do people think? Its got potential to get a lot of public interest but we need to consider any possible damage it could cause.


www.isleofmuppets.com

  • IsleofMuppets
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:27

we could register a domain that explains what happened to us and why IoM is dangerous to bank with. Rather that isleofmuppets.com it would include the keywords that we want to be highly ranked for (you get the idea).

The key to getting to Google No.1 is links and comments and I know that we can do it no problem.

I say that if there is no development by end tomorrow we launch.

Agreed?


I can help getting us high in google

  • Grant
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:12

This is my work and I can advise on getting us no.1 for keywords in google such as:

Banking Isle of Man
Isle of Man
etc

Good idea! I am in France so I am happy to help remotley in any way needed.


Excellent - a real action

  • adrienne
  • 10/10/08 13/05/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:13

thanks!


www.isleofmuppets.com

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:29

Nice one. Count me in


and me

  • sosnovka
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 21:08

good one


Is it all over folks?

  • columbgc
  • 11/10/08 14/07/10
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:03

Unfortunately, there is a sense of futility permeating the last messages. Are we giving up so easy or is it only the 50K that some of us were hoping to recover? Expat Bblair Hopper any bright ideas?


Not wanting to be too negative

  • Toast8
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Mon, 13/10/2008 - 20:13

after everyone's hard work but I am equally concerned that we are burried slowly buried. There is no evidence that the authorities have the political will to exact a settlement better than 50k. If they feel that a run on the bank may have been averted this is probably construed as a price worth paying. Buy where was the regulatory prior to the collapse? The longer in-camera discussions continue without a shred of tangible information emerging the deeper I worry. And I am not a worrier by nature. We still have a chance if we act swiftly and I hope our team (bb, expat and co) have the opportunity to represent all our interests.