Actions taken or being taken

  • Anonymous
  • unspecified
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Posted: Fri, 10/10/2008 - 04:35

If you are contacting someone, be it media or other, and you feel it might benefit others on the site, please give the details.

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Different wording for parental guarantee.

  • dclf1947
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 08:43

Mat
Not to sure if this has been said before but I have just been going though my old paperwork. On the 20 November 2007 The Derbyshire (Isle of Man) sent out an "Important Customer Announcement" letter to it's then account holders that was signed by Fiona Passey, Director of The Derbyshire (IOM) and underneath that a statement " Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle Of Man) Limited agrees to be bound as stated above signed By Aidan Doherty, Director.
In the letter there is a very different statement reference the security. No mention of parental guarantee but this: "Kaupthing Bank hf having given an irrevocable and binding undertaking to ensure that, while Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle Of Man) Limited remains it's subsidiary, it will at all times be able to discharge its financial obligations as they fall due."
Not sure if this is any use or not. If you think it is I can scan the letter and email you a copy if required.


parental guarantee

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Tue, 14/10/2008 - 02:20

I would like to see a copy of this. Please email it if you can


all roads lead to kaupthing

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:42

Wider perspective

  • alrod7
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:33

All of the banking woes started at Building society/mortgage lenders level.
Then migrated to investment banks and now to your local high street banks. Things are getting worse when countries are going bust ( Iceland, Pakistan etc).
The solution lies in governments of major economies bailing out smaller governments. Therein lies some hope for IOM depositors. Surely UK government will not want a bankrupt IOM on its dooorstep and will try and prevent a run on IOM banks which will surely slide IOM into bankruptcy ( as would Jersey & Guernsey as they have no protection, however worthless any guarantee is nowadays)
So I expect some attempt by HMG to get Iceland to do something about IOM depositors by honouring their guarantees (uselesss as Iceland has no money). That has to be HMG's initial position as it does not want to be seen to be bailing expats in any tin pot country around the world.
When this fails, in my opinion, they will bail out IOM to prevent it collapsing and in this process we may get some form of solution.
All above comments are personal and not cribbed from another source. Hope this helps someone out there.


All very true except

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:48

All very true except difficult to understand how HMG can get Iceland to honour their gauarantees when Iceland is effectively bankrupt - which was why they nationalised their Banks in the first place!


Sorry about my poor tyeping

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:21

Sorry about my poor tyeping everyone, where I am posting from isn't the best lit place and I should have had an eye test last Friday!!!!


Typos?

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:55

No worries...... we all make 'em.
Thanks for all that you are doing on our behalf.


actions and a PUBLIC STATEMENT

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:32

Given that there seem to be a number of good analysis and calm thinkers out there, so may I make a suggestion. I am the one who first called for calm, with great respect my analyis of the game has not been far off. The core is the frozen assest, the solution is in Iceland.

Subject to agreement from you all I am now prepared to go public if I can. That is reliant a discussion I hope to have with Dave banner later, there is more going on here than you all know believe me.

I am prepared ,subject to what what he found, to make a statement to the press on our behalf, I do not want or court publicity, but maybe its time. A considered statement asking for clarification of the Iceland discussion is what we need, we need t know that we are represented and that the IoM are repsesented fully and that the IoM are in touch. I don't doubt that they are, but we want evidence.
To me this is all about evidence anmd fact'not subjective emotions.
So can I have some help here if you wish to go that route.


Public Statement

  • mikepapa
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 08:16

I agree with your proposal.


Statement

  • Hussain
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:09

Expat, I thank you for the effort, as said in my post going to liquidation will take years (BCCI about 15 years and still on-going) I fully support you for asking the authorities to clarify and ensure that we are represented appropriately. Pricewaterhouse will keep the case running for as long as they can that is how they make money


effort! I have a six year old

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:29

effort! I have a six year old daughter who is everything to me, her future is i the balance and daddy cannot and will not let her down. Is that enough reason to fight to my last breath?


Public or Private

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:05

Expat - I am intrigued at what info Dave has?
I have no problem going public or not going public though I would geuss your opinion is being based on information you are about to recieve - in which case you are asking us, not if you should or should not go public but rather to trust you with the interpretation of the latest info and that going public is then the best course of action. Given that clarification - yes I am ok to go with your interpretation and opinion to go public!

I assume the most appropriate time would be inadvance of any statements form IOM or UK Govt's that will probably happen Monday?

I also assume you have enough targetted media contacts to have an adience?

Best of luck.


Public Statement

  • Mike
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:58

Expat

I have a considerable sum of funds to lose here, however I feel that Expat (who ever your are?) seem to understand more of the situation than most. I will support your actions and hope we get official statement of the situation to calm things down. A run on the remaining banks in the IOM will cause more harm than good. Furthermore, I think the compensation offered by IOM is not the answer here.

Best of luck

Mike


Little confused

  • Done like a Kipper
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:48

Hi Expat, I'm slightly confused re your original calls for calm and you're alluding to matters which were ongoing and would not become clear until Monday or Tuesday? I have no issue with you making a statement but does your comment mean that the matters you alluded to are not now our main hope of a solution?


I agree with you. We need to

  • columbgc
  • 11/10/08 14/07/10
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:45

I agree with you. We need to know if we are properly represented. We must have better information and such action, may do the trick.


cold-dose has posted

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:10

cold-dose has posted something which is not in accordance to our understanding, and my wife is breaking to pieces in Moscow! I have thought about this and although I have belief in the negotiations, there needs to be more clarity than I an find. My Monday Tuesday thinking is because Monday is a bad day in the economic storm and when bank runs start, Tuesday may yeald a statement from Ireland which may begin to chage the IoM situation. Its just about pressure build up. Tentattively there may also be a meeting with a senoir IoM figure.
As I write I think events are moving faster than ever and from ourr persectiv we need clarificationof our position. The issue is in the publoc domain nw anyway so as far as I can see we might as well act now.
AS John Maynard Keynes said ~ I change my opinion as the information changes'


Further background

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 13:23

I am always open to the possibility that I might be incorrect.

If you could indicate what aspect differed from your understanding I should be able to provide some more detailed background so that it can be looked at further.


Go for it. If we go into next

  • Toast8
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 07:35

Go for it. If we go into next week no representation there is a higher risk that our plight will be buried by further global financial fallout. I reckon that previous meeting postponed the insolvency for 2 reasons - so that the 50k provision would not need to be drafted to include retrospective incumbants and because of the expressions of interest. The latter is way to vague for my liking however although I would like to construe this as a chink of light. We don't want to be led down the garden path by folk who are more than happy to run up major insolvency fees. So if technically the firm is not currently bust and it's a viable business we may stand a chance. Otherwise we will be forced to fall into the arms of the FSC and accept whatever shoddy terms are on offer. But our days of reckoning are likely to be Mon/Tues.


Expat's proposed course of action

  • AJM UAE
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 09:09

I also agree that we need to make a public statement as we are likely to be 'yesterday's news' before long if things continue to collapse around the world. The time for sharing our experiences with one another and with the media is over for the time being, what we need now is a calm, reasoned statement of what we expect the IoM, UK and Icelandic governments to do, and the possible outcomes of a lack of action from them (particularly the IoM) at this stage. To reiterate what many of you have already said, it is definitely not in our interests to cause a run on the IoM banking institutions and it is in the IoM's best (only?) interest to sort this issue out in a way that safeguards the KSF depositors.


seeking professional help?

  • columbgc
  • 11/10/08 14/07/10
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:28

Gents,

I have about 180K USD frozen with KSF! While we are all trying to figure out a way to salvage our money, should we not try to find out if there are any professionals willing and capable of helping us out? Giving the complexity of the situation we can ill afford to mess things up even further by acting individually. Any sobering thoughts about this?


liability and redress

  • Anonymous
  • Offline
  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:16

UK or Iceland or the Isle of Man?
KSF (IoM) - a subsidiary of Kaupthing (Iceland) - decided to withdraw from business after the government of a third country (the UK) acted against another subsidiary of Kaupthing (in its territory). KSF IoM was a wholly owned subsidiary of Kaupthing in Iceland, with no legal connection with the UK or with the subsidiary in the UK.
The Isle of Man is an independent country. The UK neither interferes in, nor assists with, the finances of the IoM. The Isle of Man is independent of the UK concerning finances. We have no grounds to seek redress from the UK. Our plight is due to Kaupthing (Iceland) declining to support its guarantee to KSF (IoM). Iceland is the cause of our loss. Iceland. Many of us are UK expats, but so what?
We want the UK to assist us. Sure. [I will accept assistance from any country's government.] But we need to remember the UK is only a third party in this matter. The IoM should be helping us to fight Iceland. Maybe we should fight Iceland directly. We seem to be blaming the UK or begging the UK for help. Is this useful?


I understood that ksf(iom)

  • agaryh
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 09:43

I understood that ksf(iom) was solvent and was forced into this situation due to the uk govt putting a uk company Ksf (uk) into administration?
Ksf(iom ) used Ksf(uk) as its treasury and all iom deposits were routed through the uk!!!! which when the uk went into administration , froze the iom deposit of circa £500 million?
therefore the iom investors have lost out as a direct result of the uk govt action


Administration order on KSF UK triggered KSF IoM liquidation.

  • ossigeno
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 10:38

This chain of events is my understanding too. There are many KSF IoM customers with in-flight CHAPS/BACS transfer out which never arrived. If these had left KSF IoM but where subsequently blocked by the administration order on KSF UK those customers may have no claim with the IoM Depositors Compensation Scheme but instead a claim with KSF UK/ ING to release their transactions. I have read some contributions on other sites that in fact some of these transactions have come subsequently arrived after extended delay.


iceland honouring obligations

  • paulcuthbert
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 02:03

I saw that earlier on on some site. Lets hope it is some good news. There is no mention of IOM but it does say 'abroad'!! Hopefully tomorrow will shed a bit more light on the situation.


Can't see it myself. The

  • Toast8
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:29

Can't see it myself. The country is bust and the loans brokered (probably) with the IMF and Russians will only shore up their failing economy. Locals i.e. voters take precedence. If they do attempt to honour anything it won't be in my life time. Above all there is precedence for them not being trusted at their word. Not wanting to be too negative I find it so unequitable that through-out the world a distinction has been drawn between retail depositors and investment houses. Had BB, NR, Frany et al been investment banks they would have been allowed to go under. I truly believe that the main power brokers are unaware of our plight thinking that all is well be agreeing a "settlement" in terms of mainland depositors. Lets hope the due diligance is going well and that the mergers and acquisition units of the 3 alleged interested parties have some positive news. From my dealings with guys like that in the past it should only take them a weekend. Oh, and good morning :)


Chief Ministers contact details

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 01:31

THANKS for posting these contact details - I for one shall be e-mailing him straight away - if I can still string a few words together.


Tony Brown

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 00:54

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/politics/Isle-of-Man-pledges-action.4580891.jp

Is there any way we can contact this man to keep his attention on Kaupthing as he seems concerned?


Chief Minister's contact details

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 01:22

Chief Minister's Office
Government Office
Bucks Road
Douglas
IM1 3PG
Isle of Man

Telephone +44 (0)1624 685702
Fax +44 (0)1624 685710

Email:chief.minister AT cso.gov.im


COLD DOSE - PLEASE CALL ME 07817972990

  • guttered
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 09:11

Cold dose - I've spoken with Steve - please can you call me 07817972990


Tony Brown+chief minister IOM

  • bellyup
  • 10/10/08 09/01/10
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 01:44

Thank you for the details.
I have emailed him .


EXPAT IMy husband has come

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:54

EXPAT
IMy husband has come home today form a week away working and is as devastated as I'm sure you're wife is right now- i feel wholeheartedly responsible for not transferring the money from KSFIoM when I was initially suspicious 3 weeks ago.

If you have read my story on 'our stories' you will understand I have some knowledge of liquidation and administration but also of public sector investment. I would like to meet with you but I have 3 young children and am considering how I can come to IoM to do so. Are you planning to stay until resolved?


Hello all, I have just had a

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 05:45

Hello all, I have just had a bad night as the wife is breaking to pieces in Moscow, however as Kipling said if you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs you'll be a man my son'
My story for what it's worth is that if I lose all it will be the second around for me, I lost two homes and business and a wife in 1993, careless I know and I don't want this to become a hobby!!
So I have to keep my head' I am to old to fight again. This is all the money we had saved, this is the money from a well timed sale of our nice home in Moscow to bring my family back to the UK. At the moment we are having to live in a two room apartment in a hideous Moscow tenement block. All this we plannned for three years, all the moves we made to lead us home have led me to the IoM today.
There are many good points here, and I hope you'll appreciate that the freezing of the assets is at the root of this. I cannot and will not judge at this moment whether the FSA was riight at the time. We are devoid of fact on the one, we are guessing. But it is our best hope. As I understand it there is £600m frozen in the UK, I assume it was frozen because Kaupthing were diverting funds to Iceland.

Its in the Sunday Times this morning I see, so the word is out now anyway. Perhaps now is the time to put pressure on the UK Gov for a statemnt, use the Times article or whichever blog site is working on this. We still must remember that a run s not what we need, put information and reassurance is. Put may I suggest measure your words accusations are notexactly going to help. But Iceland is where this goes and its what deal the treasury are wringing out of this that matters. I am hopeful and wish Alisatair Darling teams who be a bit more specific about whats happening.

The IoM gov are not the bad boys here, other than a lousy scheme, but then we all should have known that there ignorance is no excuse in law as the say.


UK Guarantee - the fastest and cheapest way to save IOM

  • kiwi38
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:16

Following on from my earlier post re the UK Govt obligations to us all, I have tried to have a think about the bigger picture which is the entire IOM Banking system.

The KSF IOM situation actually provides the UK Govt with an opportunity to step in an underwrite the situation thereby hopefully restoring full confidence in the IOM system. Think about it - at a suggested £86M total exposure our deposit total is tiny. Furthermore the UK Govt already have 60% of this in the UK operation of Kaupthing and a further 15% is apparently held in cash by KSF IOM. The rest is probably recoverable over time and as a final recourse the UK Govt can go to the Iclandic Govt and ask for any shortfall under their parental g'tee. This has to be the most cost effectively way of stopping a potentially disasterous situation from occuring on Monday morning - if there is a run on the Banks then it will probably cost the UK Govt a multiple of what we are talking about here if it brings another UK Bank close to or over the brink. If this step is taken and announced tomorrow then confidence will have been restored and hopefully life can get back to normal on the IOM.

Apparently the Dutch are going to sort out their mess and I know the Irish are guaranteeing the local and foreign banks operating in Ireland - desperate times call for desperate measures.

What are the chances that anyone with influence is monitoring these sites and will act? Can someone out there put this point to the IOM and UK politicians in the morning? We've all seen what inaction and slow action have done over the past 10 days - the UK Govt must act on Sunday.


Not sure if your hopes are

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 00:01

Not sure if your hopes are realistic. So far, the UK government's attitude has been that it's IoM's (and Jersey's) own problem. Would the UK really be that concerned about potential collapse of the banking system and local economy on IoM? It would hardly be helpful to the UK economy, but would it really matter to them much, given the general international state of affairs? It seems to me that "looking after number 1" (perhaps I should say number 10) is their primary concern.

For sure, the IoM government have a very different stance, but what power do they have?

It seems to me that key points are:

  • The UK government have effectively caused our loss.
  • Our money (or the bulk of it) is in the UK and commandeered by them.

The first point is subjective and unlikely to have any legal basis (?)
The second point is based on assumption, do we have any hard facts?


I think this is a massive

  • silvesc
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:41

I think this is a massive understatement of deposits in IoM KSF. I think somewhere else on this site a number over GBP800m was mentioned.


underestimate

  • masu
  • 10/10/08 30/04/14
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 04:54

In total agreement


As a follow on point the UK

  • kiwi38
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:29

As a follow on point the UK Govt needn't provide this for free. Maybe the annual levy that the Banks pay to the UK should be increased for this safeguard. Maybe even a one-off levy of say 1% of funds being g'teed could be charged - I know I would certainly pay 1% for this type of capital g'tee and I suspect in these turbulent times so would almost everyone else with money in the IOM.


Quotations

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 22:20


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

-- Margaret Mead


"We must remember that one determined person can make a significant difference, and that a small group of determined people can change the course of history."

-- Sonia Johnson


Those words have cheered me

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 23:32

Those words have cheered me up a bit, was feeling like all was lost, they are right though, we must at least try.

Thank you :)


An opinion

  • Diver
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 22:13

Like so many of you one here I have, so far, lost absolutely everything in KSF (IOM) and frankly £50k compensation is neither here nor there compared to the sums lost. I do however have to try to be positive in this otherwise disastrous period otherwise I'd probably go mad. I realise that we are in a very big hole but I'll grasp at any straws I can and there are a few (but they're still straws).

If the current scenario plays out and everone in the UK part of KSF get's their money back (which they will) and then the Icelandic government bails out their own citizens in KSF (via Russia) whilst ignoring the parental guarantee to KSF (IOM), well, that would leave us stranded. Whilst this is certainly a strong possibility this would be a political disaster for a large number of parties. Offshore banking would surely suffer greatly if not collapse altogether and let's not forget that some of the depositors in the IOM are also amongst the most influential around...they're not going to the wall quietly. This gives me a little hope as this isn't anyone wants.

It sounds like the Dutch are bailing out their people as well so it would appear that our best hope would be for Gordon Brown to either protect us like the rest of the UK or to at least repay the 60% that has been bandied around freely for a couple of days. Granted I'm indulging in a lot of wishfull thinking here (like I said, I'm grasping at straws) but there may be hope yet.

Whatever happens in the next few days, creatring a run on other offshore banks or specifically IOM banks is not the answer...in fact the less banks that get into more trouble over the next few weeks the better our chances of getting something more than £50k out of somewhere. All this 'bail out cash' isn't limitless...we don't need more people needing a piece of it.


Kaupthing UK - Adminstrator Contact

  • Alastair
  • 10/10/08 30/09/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 21:54

Apologies if this has been discussed and we missed it but:

  • who is the administrator for Kaupthing UK
  • has he been contacted by anyone from this group to point out that this company has a majority of the KSF IOM's assets and also its actions have frozen UK citizens (and others) attempts to transfer our funds onshore last week.

Don't see how this would hurt and could be good backing for the PWc pursuit of our money.


Childish & spiteful

  • umpaumpa
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 21:40

I am a little unusual. Sorry, this does not help anyone, but thought I would share with you all.

Like a large number of you I am an ex-pat. Lived if five countries after leaving UK many years ago. Currently I am in the US. Despite this I am English. Over the years I saved as hard as I could for the future plans my family and I share. Without MY money, these plans are dreams without foundation.

Like many of the posts here, I blame the UK Government. If I do not get back every penny of my hard earned savings, here is what I am personally going to do: Renounce the UK completely and in every way possible, I will apply for US citizenship (or whatever country will take me) and never come to the UK again.


I agree with you

  • Jhas
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 01:59

The UK government has put us all in this difficult position and should get us out of this dark tunnel. The only hope that we KSF IOM depositors have is for the UK government to differentiate between the assets of Kaupthing HF and KSF (IOM), and release the assets of KSF (IOM) to its rightful owners regardless of whether they are British citizens or not. I am also an expat. I was forced to become an expat after September 11th when I lost my job and my lifetime savings in the stock market. After 7 years of hard work, I was able to make up the lost money only to see it disappear again in this incredible fashion! I just cannot believe that in today's so called civilized world, governments can jump in and steal people's hard earned money to protect their own interests and screw individuals like us. I presume that a lot of KSF (IOM) depositors are expats like me and do not care what nationalities they have. We are all citizens of the same world before being individual citizens of any single country. If our countries do not care about us, we should all stick together and push the people who stole our money under whatever slogan to give it back to us. The governments which steal money from individual depositers' accounts are the real terrorists here!


I agree with you

  • Jhas
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 01:59

The UK government has put us all in this difficult position and should get us out of this dark tunnel. The only hope that we KSF IOM depositors have is for the UK government to differentiate between the assets of Kaupthing HF and KSF (IOM), and release the assets of KSF (IOM) to its rightful owners regardless of whether they are British citizens or not. I am also an expat. I was forced to become an expat after September 11th when I lost my job and my lifetime savings in the stock market. After 7 years of hard work, I was able to make up the lost money only to see it disappear again in this incredible fashion! I just cannot believe that in today's so called civilized world, governments can jump in and steal people's hard earned money to protect their own interests and screw individuals like us. I presume that a lot of KSF (IOM) depositors are expats like me and do not care what nationalities they have. We are all citizens of the same world before being individual citizens of any single country. If our countries do not care about us, we should all stick together and push the people who stole our money under whatever slogan to give it back to us. The governments which steal money from individual depositers' accounts are the real terrorists here!


I do know how you feel

  • ng
  • 11/10/08 31/12/20
  • a depositor
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 22:05

Ironically, my own loss (about 70k) makes it now near impossible for me to return to the UK - something I have been wanting to do for years but have been unable to do, essentially due to lack of money. I had hoped that this money (an inheritance from my UK-resident parents) would make it possible.

I'm not at the point of denouncing my nationality, but who knows, it may come to that.


BBC News - our plight is getting heard

  • guttered
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 21:33

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/7665119.stm

Savers with money in offshore subsidiaries of two collapsed Icelandic banks may not get all of it back.

Landsbanki Guernsey and Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) were stopped from trading earlier this week.

Money in these offshore funds is not covered by the compensation schemes operated in the UK or in Iceland, nor the chancellor's guarantee.

Guernsey has no compensation scheme at the moment but Isle of Man will pay up to £50,000.

Many affected

There are thought to be thousands of British people who have savings with these banks in Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

Many have substantial funds there.

Opera singer Barbara Segal from Manchester retired to Sri Lanka and opened a dog rescue home.

If you can't trust a bank what do you do?

Barbara Segal

Read your stories
All her money was with Kaupthing Isle of Man.

She discovered the problems when she tried to move money at the weekend.

She could not do that and now cannot use her cash card.

She told Money Box, "I have in one account £187,000 - that's my life savings - I live off the interest on that.

"And in a current account I have £6,500 which I use for emergency money.

"I just don't know what to do - I have absolutely no other money.

"If you can't trust a bank what do you do - keep it under your bed?"

Guarantee limits

The Treasury has confirmed to the BBC that the guarantee by the Chancellor Alistair Darling that no-one would lose money after Landsbanki and Kaupthing collapsed earlier this week, does not extend to these independent offshore islands which are not part of the United Kingdom, nor the European Union.

In addition savers will get a share of proceeds of any liquidation, but that will depend on the outcome

John Aspden, chief executive of the Financial Supervision Commission, Isle of Man
Instead savers will have to look to the Isle of Man compensation scheme which was introduced on 7 October.

John Aspden, chief executive of the island's Financial Supervision Commission, confirmed to Money Box that the scheme will apply to customers of Kaupthing Singer & Friendlander (Isle of Man).

"The compensation scheme does apply up to £50,000.

"In addition savers will get a share of proceeds of any liquidation, but that will depend on the outcome."

On 9 October the court appointed Michael Simpson of PricewaterhouseCoopers as provisional liquidator.

No information is currently available about the assets the bank may have.

Other options?

The chief minister of Isle of Man has said Kaupthing Bank hf in Iceland gave a guarantee in 2007 to cover client deposits in its Isle of Man subsidiary.

"We have made representations to the United Kingdom government… to press the government of Iceland to honour Kaupthing's guarantee."

We are doing everything we can... to enable a part payment to depositors and creditors to be made as soon as possible

Richard Garrard of Deloitte & Touche
Savers with Landsbanki Guernsey are in a more difficult position.

Guernsey has no compensation scheme.

It may introduce one later in the year but that may not help people who lost money before it begins.

That would leave customers of Landsbanki Guernsey queuing up with other creditors when the company is liquidated.

Administrator Richard Garrard of Deloitte & Touche told the BBC's Moneybox programme:

"There are significant liquid funds available to the bank and we are doing everything we can within the boundaries of the law to enable a part payment to depositors and creditors to be made as soon as possible."


Fragmented, unorganised and not focused

  • kiwi38
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sat, 11/10/2008 - 21:16

This forum is a great place to vent our frustrations but at present we have people calling for calm, people advocating a run on all IOM banks, people prepared to sit and wait and others calling for immediate meetings and protests. How can we turn this site into something more coordinated and meaningful?

Yesterday I spent all night on moneysupermarket blaming the UK Government for pulling the trigger on us by freezing the assets of Kaupthing UK. I maintain my view that the UK Govt has played a huge role in our predicament and must step up to sort this out.

Ideally I would like the UK Govt to give us the same assurances that they have given all Kaupthing UK customers and g'tee our deposits. I have even suggested (along with some others) that we commit to leaving all "rescued funds" in place for 12+ months to avoid an immediate cash call on the UK Govt and to give them time to sort out the true asset position and then go to the Icelandic Govt for any shortfall under the Kaupthing parental g'tee. The UK Govt have more chance of a success than any of us as individuals. Who knows, a deal on fishing rights or something similar may be done as final settlement for the overall "Iceland account".

Failing this, as an absolute minimum the UK Govt must underwrite all of the loans made from KSF IOM to the Kaupthing UK operation. We are all in effect defacto depositors to the Kaupthing UK operation as the IOM appears to have simply been a deposit taking office for the UK operation. I repeat, we are all defacto depositors to Kaupthing UK and not simply some nameless faceless creditor on the Kaupthing UK balance sheet to be written off in favour of the UK public! I understand that 60% of the KSF IOM funds were loaned to Kaupthing UK so under this proposal 60% of our deposits would be UK Govt backed. I believe a further 15% of the KSF IOM funds were held in cash although I don't know where - you would hope that this cash is fully recoverable taking our short term recoverable stake up to 75%. I understand the other 25% of our deposits were utilised for normal customer lending so if the policies were prudent then this should be recoverable but will take time unless the "loan book" is purchased by another bank in the short term. If this happens then it may be sold at a discount leaving an overall shortfall but at least getting us close to 100%. This shortfall would then be covered by the IOM compensation scheme.

Does anyone have any concrete facts and figures from either the administrator or a high level KSF IOM inside source that would help us assess the real position? I feel a little better having broken the issue down above, however my numbers could be wrong and it is all contingent upon the UK Govt giving back our deposits and not stealing them under the "terrorism law" to pay off the Kaupthing UK clients.

EXPAT, do you have any solid numbers from your contacts that you are able to post?


Kiwi38 hi, I have the same

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 05:52

Kiwi38 hi, I have the same info as you as it happens, and yes what I am also trying to find out is where we stand with the UK Gov, who may or may not having acted to fast. I cannot judge that. My understanding as of now is that most of the funds are known its how we get it. I can't see another bank completing until this is resolved and it is even possible I supposie that KSF can re-open under its own steam.

Like you my fearhas been that we will lose out to UK puiblic. I have privately expressed that fear.


Possession is 9/10th of the Law

  • tubefly
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 06:42

Interesting that the UK Govt. would consider such a tactic. I guess Gordon is now considering switch from Monetarism Economics to Jamesian Economics (that being Jessie James).
Surely the UK has no Title to these funds?

What concerns me and probably any Takeover merchant is the value of the underlying investment that the bank has on its books. Now I am no banker – but I thought any bank typically operates with a 15% to 20% minimum float – call it working capital leaving 75% to 80% for investments. As such providing these investments are sound (though not necessarily liquid) the bank would still have title to those investments and could in fact still be a viable going concern.

Are the ultimate investments solid?

Any bankers out there?


Well put Kiwi - so lets give ourselves some space

  • Anonymous
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  • Sun, 12/10/2008 - 00:56

Nice one Kiwi38. We are mostly just panicking at the moment; hence the erratic movements and differing arguments for what to do.

Just remember that this has taken the business world by suprise just as it has us. Before we bring the whole European banking system down, by prematurely making alot of noise, lets just give negotiations a chance of coming up trumps. Other business is not going to interesting in taking on KSF IOM if we have made it unsellable by destroying the entire banking system.

If we see no movement in our favour, then we can act. In a co-ordinated, organised, and very targeted way. But until we have all the facts and the possible talks have not been played out, lets just keep a lower profile for now. I have the chains ready to lock myself to the Bristish Embassey railings; but that is tommorrows action. Lets just give talk a chance first.

Mat Walker