24th October - Appeal To Delay The Date ?

  • steveejeb
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
Posted: Wed, 15/10/2008 - 10:24

The dreaded date of 24th October is approaching rapidly - just next Friday.

My understanding is that if the bank is not sold by the 24th October it will be liquidated. If it is liquidated then depositors are more liable lose money and it is likely to take much longer to get it. No-one is going to buy the bank if its assets are not intact. It is surely in all of our interests to try and ensure this does not happen and we are given every chance of full recovery.

My question and thought for another AVENUE OF ACTION is:

For an appeal be lodged with the relevant bodies to delay the 24th October Liquidation date by a few more weeks?

If delaying the liquidation date is seen to be to our advantage by giving more of a chance for a buyer to takeover the bank, also gives a chance for possible Russian/IMF/Japanese or whatever bail out for Iceland time to kick in and filter down to us through the banking system. It also gives a chance for the Iceland UK row to be resolved, then we should be trying to get the date delayed.

Any thoughts or suggestions for this ?

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M.Simpson has already said its out of his control, yes?

  • JD
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 18:53

Hasnt he already said its out of his control to postpone the date of 24th and we need to take it up with FSC ourselves ?


Good night all from Oz . . .

  • drglowry
  • 14/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:31

Good night all from Oz. Just can't take any more today. As Scarlett famously said: Tomorrow is another day. I am grateful for the good work and human companionship of all of us on this list. We must "Maintain the Rage" (really dates me.)
Cheers.


spakoini notchi

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:32

spakoini notchi


Mike Simpson Responds....

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:02

[I just got this email from Simpson in response to my letter. We need to talk to the FSC stat. Blair]
Email content:

Apologies for the brevity of this response but I am in London today meeting various parties in respect of the KSF liquidation.

The timing of the winding up petition is in the hands of the petitioners, ie the FSC - I have no control over it at all and my powers as Liquidator Provisionally are very limited. If you have concerns about the timing of the winding up petition you should talk to the FSC.

Regards
Mike Simpson | Partner | PwC| Sixty Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1SA
Telephone +44 (0) 1624 689689 | Fax +44 (0) 1624 689690


Letter sent to Aspen at FSC

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:43

...will let you guys now if I hear anything. Expat: do you and your ground troops know where this guy lives :)
Blair
See Content:

KSF (IoM) Action Group
John Aspen
Chief Executive
Isle of Man Financial Supervision Commission

October 17, 2008

Dear Mr. Aspen,

There has been considerable debate among members of the KSF (IoM) Action Group regarding the impending wind up of the bank currently scheduled for a court hearing on October 24th, 2008. (http://www.ksfiomdepositors.netgenius.co.uk/?q=node/142). A growing number of depositors with KSF (IoM) are concerned that winding up the bank at this stage may be premature, extinguishing our ability to benefit from the Kaupthing hf guarantee should the parent bank be rescued in a joint political effort.

We collectively feel that there is sufficient political will and collective interest to result in the eventual recapitalization of the Kaupthing parent through a multi-national effort. Witness Belgium's recent initiative, the IMF task force in Iceland, negotiations between the United Kingdom and Iceland and the obvious concern that is shared for Iceland’s fortunes in the Nordic region.

Our sense is that this situation needs sufficient time for all of the political parties to this crisis to formulate an Icelandic banking solution. While this may take another month or two, we believe it would be worth leaving the KSF (IoM) bank in place so that it may benefit from the eventual political solution when that arises; a solution for the KSF parent will, as you know, benefit depositors through the existence of the parental guarantee of our deposits. We are hereby requesting a suitable delay before winding up KSF (IoM).

Would you first please confirm to this Group whether or not it is part of your mandate to consider the broader political context in your decision to wind-up KSF (IoM)? Will you further inform this group of your decision regarding our request to delay the wind-up? In light of the very tight timeline, would you be kind enough to provide us with your answers to these questions today.

Sincerely,

[Blair]

Representative, KSF (IoM) Action Group

cc Mike Simpson, Liquidator Provisionally, PWC
Rosemary Penn, Chairman of the Board of Commissioners


hand petition to FSC

  • bushmen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:11

maybe we should then hand petition to FSC rather, as it is them that will want to liquidate it.


I will email it to the FSC stat, but...

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:20

...it would be awesome if someone could take it to the FSC in person this afternoon.

anyone have the email address for our contact at FSC???? Scratch that - its John Aspen. I will email the letter to John Aspen stat. Blair


blair i think its time you

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:06

blair i think its time you and hooper got here, we'll try to set this up but can't promise bcuae it coming up to the weekend and they all hibernate here!


Expat...

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:11

I'm on stand-by to fly to IoM. But I don't want to do that until meetings can be had that can influence the process. I'm gonna keep pushing from this side, but I can be there Monday if it really would accomplish something. I'm the meantime, I recognize that you are shouldering a lot there on the ground and I'm grateful. Blair


oh i just like to add a

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:22

oh i just like to add a little tension and keep the pressure on blair!!!

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Isle-of-Man-Kaupthing-depositors.4598393.jp


Shocking sums!!!!

  • Monkeyface3604
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:31

Just worked out maximum levy per year going to be 15 million.
10,000 accounts (not all going to be entitled to full 50,000)
Thats only 300 maximum payouts per year

I would say that if the scheme does activate then its only going to be of benefit to your kids or possibly grand kids!!!

This needs to be highlighted to the press, we need to make them clear the 50,000 scheme is useless, nothing like the UK one and is a paper exercise!!!!


can we form an urgent

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:10

can we form an urgent petition to go to the FSC or Hopper can your legal advise us better? this is where we need media behind us.


URGENT AGENDA PCW meeting on

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:40

URGENT AGENDA PCW meeting on the 24th: has anyone asked for the agenda for the meeting yet and if so can you please post? POSTPONEMENT: Just had good chat with my (liquidation specialist) lawyer, his advice is that the media would not look favorably on the Liquidator refusing a plea by a quantifiable group of creditors to postpone the meeting.


KSFIOM 24th hearing

  • occams razor
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:54

From my understanding it is not a "PCW meeting", it's an IOM High Court hearing in IOM to consider a petition by the board of KSFIOM to wind-up the company:

What is the current status of KSF (IOM)?

On the evening of 8 October, following consultation with the Commission, the
Board of KSF (IOM) resolved that it should apply for the company to be wound up.
At that point KSF (IOM) stopped trading and the Commission suspended KSF’s
banking licence.
On the morning of 9 October, a joint petition was presented to the High Court by
KSF (IOM) and the Commission for the appointment of a “liquidator provisionally”.
Michael Simpson of Pricewaterhouse Coopers, 60 Circular Road, Douglas, Isle of
Man, IM1 1SA was appointed by the Court.

Does that mean that KSF (IOM) will be wound up?

The process is not automatic. Winding-up would require a separate order of the
Court, at which point a liquidator would be appointed. The petition for winding-up
has been adjourned to 24 October.*

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/fsc/PressReleases/kaupthingsingerqanda.pdf


24th October Court Hearing

  • steveejeb
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:57

That is correct occams razor. It is a court meeting and the winding-up is not automatic. What we are requesting here is that the liquidator requests the court to adjourn/postpone to later date. We understand that the liquidator has the capacity to do this, although that needs confirmation.

By getting the liquidator in agreement before heading to court we therefore have the opportunity to get a postponement .

See also sleeplessness lawyers view of this.


Court hearing

  • cold-dose
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:48

It's a court hearing on the 24th. It is the court that would decide whether or not to postpone the commencement of liquidation.


sorry guys, lack of sleep!

  • sleeplessnight
  • 10/10/08 30/06/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:19

sorry guys, lack of sleep! What else can we do then in addition to the letter? Does expat need to turn up there with other IoM reps and hand over a formal petition?


Letter to PWC (suggestion for Expat)

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:38

KSF (IoM) Action Goup

October 17, 2008

Dear Mr. Simpson,

There has been considerable debate among members of the KSF (IoM) Action Group regarding the impending wind up of the bank currently scheduled for a court hearing on October 24th, 2008. (http://www.ksfiomdepositors.netgenius.co.uk/?q=node/142). A growing number of depositors with KSF (IoM) are concerned that winding up the bank at this stage may be premature, extinguishing our ability to benefit from the Kaupthing hf guarantee should the parent bank be rescued in a joint political effort.

We collectively feel that there is sufficient political will and collective interest to result in the eventual recapitalization of the Kaupthing parent through a multi-national effort. Witness Belgium's recent initiative, the IMF task force in Iceland, negotiations between the United Kingdom and Iceland and the obvious concern that is shared for Iceland’s fortunes in the Nordic region.

Our sense is that this situation needs sufficient time for all of the political parties to this crisis to formulate an Icelandic banking solution. While this may take another month or two, we believe it would be worth leaving the KSF (IoM) bank in place so that it may benefit from the eventual political solution if/when that arises; a solution for the KSF parent will, as you know, benefit us through the existence of the parental guarantee of our deposits.

Would you first please confirm to this Group whether or not it is part of your mandate to consider the broader political context in your decision concerning wind-up? Will you further inform this Group of your intentions regarding this requested delay of the wind-up process. In light of the very tight timeline, would you be kind enough to provide us with your answers to these questions today.

Sincerely,

[Expat’s name]
Representative, KSF (IoM) Action Group

cc Louise Harding, PWC


letter to PWC

  • KA
  • 14/10/08 29/06/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 18:47

fine by me too. thank you for writing it on our behalf


fine with me

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:34

fine with me


Letter to PWC

  • steveejeb
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:45

Very well framed letter, I totally agree with everything in it, I am fully for this to be taken by hand of Expat?, to his offices, presumably on Monday when he returns? In the meantime perhaps we can work on a plan B, that will be ready should we not receive these assurances.


Thank you Blair for initiating this NO Liquidation!!!!

  • 1log
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:45

We have to stop the 24th Oct proceedings to liquidate KSF and our dreams of 100% money return.


anyone got the link for itv

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:17

anyone got the link for itv border screening last night please, we haven't seen it here, well i haven't any way


I put it youtube and posted the link

  • skintagainnow
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:52

I put it up on the site in youtube - so everyone has access - it's here but I don't know where 30+ hrs of no sleep made a co**-up, sent ng a link to it in post so hopefully he could sort it out.


thanks not sure i like to

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:35

thanks not sure i like to exposure but i will if we win this war!!!


Action to APPEAL to Delay the Date - DO THIS

  • bushmen
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:00

Hi,

I have tried to phone Mike but managed to speak to a lady called Louise Harding.

She asked that everyone please forward all their questions like this particular question to her. She will then forward it onto the relevant people. Please CC mike as well.

Her email address is l [dot] harding(?)iom [dot] pwc [dot] com Please CC mike at mike [dot] simpson(?)iom [dot] pwc [dot] com

Regards,
Bushmen


I sent Mike a letter earlier...

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:14

I'd like to suggest that I fine tune this (momentarily) then repost it here. If it gets support, I suggest that one of us (probably Expat) send it as our official rep. It might be a good idea also to hand deliver a signed copy and ask Harding for a quick response. I'm sure they are buried in email and we need to know quickly where these guys stand on the matter. Blair


Q&A's

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:21

I do recall a few days ago a few folk put together an excellent list of Q&A's many of which were aimed at IOM Gov and the liquidator prov. I believe those Q&A's were put on the "right desks".
Beyond the press releases by Mike Simpson, are those on island comfortable that we have a working channel of communication with him? I don't recall seeing any transcript of answers.

Someone referred to Simpson being in London - is that where he is? Is anyone talking directly with him?

Expat and those in situ, you're doing a great job. This is not a dig at anyone. Just wondered.


Questions have been delivered

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:32

The questions addressed the issue of delay in the wind-up. No answers as of yet. Blair


Genius!

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:06

who woulda thunk? coordination and communication all in one day!


anarchic crisis management

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:19

anarchic crisis management technique i am going to copyright his method!!!


Expat:

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:34

Will you agree to email and hand deliver the above letter on our collective behalf? Blair


If I haven#t already posted

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:41

If I haven#t already posted this, I have just been contacted by the Lndbanski deopositors group, afer I put out an appeal to them last night. So I will ask them to get on this site and talk to us, or talk by phone to them.


the IoM team on the ground

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:33

the IoM team on the ground will do as you ask, but you guys need to prepare us please.


Suggestion re Stay of Proceedings

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:02

The IOM team could take a formal letter to the PWC office simply requesting their position on the matter. Someone there could call Mike Simpson in London and get his answer. We may not have a problem if we hear that he is willing to petition the court for a delay in the wind-up. PWC may indeed see what we see - suggest we ask them first, retain counsel second. Blair


Suggestion re Stay of Proceedings - AYE

  • steveejeb
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:15

I agree with you bblair. I think we could leave this issue "stewing" over the weekend though, on the understanding that we MUST have an affirmative answer and agreement to call for postponement from Mike Simpson by say the close of play on Monday. This would then give us time to take the legal injunction or other routes to cause a postponement ourselves.


Need for Manx Legal Counsel

  • DXB
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:51

Ya ochen, ochen grateful to the team on the ground!

But insolvency law is a very specialised area - we need someone with the right professional expertise if we're going to do this right. An English insolvency practitioner would be a good start, but ideally we need someone with a grasp of Manx insolvency law - because Manx law is different to English law, and there are likely to be different rules governing petitions/submissions to the Manx courts...

Manxmen/residents - you have the local contacts. Any Manx insolvency practitioners who might be willing to give a little pro bono advice?


pajalasta, spasba balshoi

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:59

pajalasta, spasba balshoi


ermmm...what he just said

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:04

.


erm...

  • rippedoff
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:13

its "beam me up Scotty" in Russian


or...

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 14:47

"someone get me a revolver and a bottle of vodka".


Think we are covered on this

  • steveservaes
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:13

Think we are covered on this one guys


How are we covered?

  • 491
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:39

Did I miss something? Blair


oh I am so glad you have

  • expat
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 10:34

oh I am so glad you have responded, I sat up all night wondering if somebody had understood that my request fpr help was real


Delay 24th Court date

  • Maud
  • 13/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 09:37

I agree. It would seem sensible to have the date postponed to give time for the dust to settle. However, we (the people registered on this web site) have not voted in a Comittee to deal on our behalf with PWC or FSC or anyone. This should be our priority so we are organised and focussed. I think each depositor should give a mandalte to the new committe when voted in to act in negotions. PWC will not deal with one person with some form of "official"authorisation from the depositors concerned. The portfolios for the committee would be Chairman, Vice Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer (if we put in funds to run it) Press Officer Financial Officer. When formed the FO should find out from investors their exact loss with a name, this of course would be confidential and not contain any account nos. But would give a clearer picture of the amounts we are dealing with. This is the democratic way to do it and what PWC will want to see. Lins-in-the-bush


liquidation delay

  • 208
  • 10/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 09:28

Sorry just had phone call. Today's meeting with Mike Simpson just been cancelled as he is flying to London on KSF business today.

Please rest assured these comments along with other questions will be put to Mr Simpson when he is back on Monday.

I will post any information, whatever its nature, on to forum this monday

David


economy

  • Captain Mainwaring
  • 11/10/08 31/05/09
  • a depositor
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 12:28

class is the way I trust he is travelling on my account. That is the way that I have to do it now.......

But joking aside as per my other posts, we need to remind PWC that they are work for us, not just selling a loan book, but refinancing us, and if an adjournment is required (and it is), that they petition the court to do so. The only possible loss could be a delay in receiving statutory compensation that may take years in any case.


Can someone in UK meet with Liquidator?

  • Elpasout
  • 10/10/08 31/08/09
  • a depositor
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 11:35

Dave, I know you have built a relationship with Mr Simpson but would it make sense for ons/some of our UK based depositors to meet with him TODAY - assuming that he is able/prepared to do that? Nothing to stop you continuing your good work when he is back in IOM on Monday. Iis he not prepared to meet at the weekend?)

Time is precious! (24th will be on before we know it)

His phone number is listed on one of posting s I think?


Best e-mail address for Mike Simpson?

  • sabi Star
  • 10/10/08 n/a (free)
  • unspecified
  • Offline
  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 09:13

If we want to e-mail Mike Simpson directly as BBlair did below ( as well as sign the Petition ) is
mike [dot] simpson(?)iom [dot] pwc [dot] com the best address to send it to?
I did send another e-mail to this address and I got back a message to the effect -"reply if you are not the sender of this e-mail or do not want the matter dealt with "- ie don't reply if you want the matter dealt with. I thought it odd.


Staying of Winding-Up - Things to Consider

  • DXB
  • 12/10/08 31/05/09
  • unspecified
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  • Fri, 17/10/2008 - 09:06

Whoa - hold your horses!

I'm not an insolvency lawyer, but here are some thoughts:

If we want to delay (or "stay") the proceedings, I suspect we'd need to persuade the court that there are justifiable grounds for doing so. What grounds do we have? What evidence can we adduce to show that there is a reasonable prospect of a better recovery for all creditors if the liquidation is stayed?

We'd need access to documents and accounts, to players in the banking industry who might be potential trade buyers, to political negotiations in relation to the frozen assets etc. in order to put together a credible case. Are we in a position to do this?

What are the views of PwC? Are they in favour of staying proceedings, or against the idea? How informed are our own views, if we take a different stance to the Liquidator Provisionally? Is there a risk that assets might be dissipated or the prospects of recoveries deminished by staying the process?

I don't have the answers, but these are things we might want to think about as a group.

Any Manx insolvency practitioners on this site who would care to comment?